RJ : What are your main fears of what could have happened to Madeleine?
RJ : About the documentary, obviously, you... you didn't go back, but what was it like for you to be back at Praia da Luz.
RJ : There's also been Gonçalo Amaral's book and at the time there was a lot of talk about possible legal charges brought up by you against Gonçalo Amaral. Are you still considering these legal charges against him?
RJ : How have you worked as a couple? I mean, how do you support each other to go through the difficult stages? Errr... if there are more difficult...
RJ : Do you ever worry that the campaign, errr... will in, you know, any way... on the twins by giving them, maybe, less attention than... than Madeleine's receiving from everybody? Would that...
RJ : Do you guys talk about when she comes home?
|Keep your ennemies closer|
L'état émotionnel de parents dont l'enfant a été kidnappé est évidemment très différent. Ce ne sont pas les premiers jours les plus terribles, car l'espoir est grand qu'une demande de rançon ou des conditions de restitution s'expriment. Mais plus le temps passe sans manifestation du ravisseur, plus l'angoisse monte et le doute tenaille, sans espoir de dénouement ni d'apaisement.
La disparition de MMC est la cause de l'incomplétude de la famille MC, bien que l'enfant soit toujours avec eux, bien que sa chambre soit intacte, bien que les jumeaux parlent d'elle quotidiennement.
Au début les MC étaient convaincus que MMC avait été enlevée par des pédophiles, abusée et tuée, mais comme rien ni personne n'est venu confirmer cette hypothèse, ils en ont conclu qu'on ne pouvait conclure que quelque chose de mal lui était arrivé (argumentum ad igorantium).
Les MC invités à This Morning
18.05.2009 - ITV
Transcription de Nigel Moore
FB : Now, it's estimated that 43,000 children go missing in the UK every year. Now, we know that many children are found but there are several who aren't and hundreds of thousands more around the globe.
FB : Well, we're joined now by the families of two of those missing children: Kate and Gerry McCann, whose daughter, Madeleine, went missing in Portugal two years ago.
PS : And Sharon Lee, whose daughter, Katrice, who was 2-years-old when she disappeared, 27 years ago, from a German supermarket. And Sharon is here with her daughter Natasha.
GMC : Ern... yes, that's right, Ernie Allen who's the... the President and Chief Executive Officer, errm... 900 children. So, th... that's kids who've all been missing for more than 2 years, so... Errr... I have to say we've had lots of information come in following that... that image but, of course, probably naturally, errr... after we did our interview in the States, a lot of the sightings were from the States and, errr... you know, they all need to be filtered and I'm sure Peter is, errr... all too aware, errm... you know, you need... you need things verified and the credibility and a lot of the information we've got we... we have to pass back on to the police, errm... but, you know, it's a good response and I think, fro... from our point of view, the key thing was challenging what Madeleine looks like now, compared to the image that everyone's got ingrained in their head and... (2)
Kate MC : I mean it's very hard to imagine... guess, what a child will look like 2 years later and obviously the Madeleine that we remember is, you know, the Madeleine... that she was and it's obviously the same for other families too and I think the general public that's difficult as well and I've had people send me photographs saying 'I want you to see this, can you tell me that this isn't Madeleine. I was on holiday in Spain, or whatever' and it's a 3-year-old in the picture.
FB : The frustrating thing, as a viewer of that documentary last week, was that you want these images; this level of… of publicity, to be focussed in Portugal because the two, errr… investigating officers, that you have taken on board to search for her, they… they’re looking and they… they’re saying, ‘We think we should start in Praia da Luz’, which is where she was last seen, but, suddenly, when the investigation started, it was spread far and wide and people forgot to look right there. So, what’s happening in Portugal? Are you able to get these pictures; get this publicity out there? (3)
GMC : I think, you know, the… the documentary was shown, errr… the… just last week as well, and obviously the Oprah interview was shown as well, so the image was on that...
PS : There’s also though the… the… and we’ve said it so many times to people who have been in here; that… that… they tell their story, errm… and then go away and live whatever tragedy or nightmare they’re living and the rest of the world turns away and gets on with its own lives. Isn’t it that… that… that… as families, you know, this… this is an ongoing, continuing thing for you but the… the people of Praia da Luz have it… it… moved on, haven’t they? And… and… up to the point where photographs are being ripped down, you know, they’ve sort of said, ‘right’, some of them have said, ‘that’s enough, we don’t want to do this anymore’.
GMC : I think, you know, it’s natural that, errr… people – particularly when livelihoods are threatened – that, errr… could perceive this in… in a negative way but, you know, from our point of view, as parents, errr… – same applies to other families – errr… we can’t stop searching and the best thing for everyone is to find Madeleine and who took her. You know, there is an abductor still out there…
PS : But your… your investigation which… which… which, you know, you’ve worked so hard on; I know that you’ve trawled through thousands and thousands and thousands of pieces of… of information; throw… throwing up the photo-fit that we saw for the… for the first time, we were… we were shown the photo-fit, errm… of… of this… this guy that… that, errr… hadn’t really appeared in… in any of the investigations before, so what… what is it that… are you still uncovering failings in the Portuguese police or are you just digging deeper now that… now that they’ve moved on?
GMC : I think what you’ve got to remember, you know, is the Portuguese police, they worked very hard but the massive amount of attention – in many ways quite a bit of information probably wasn’t captured – and you have to look at the processes which were in place. It’s not as simple, errr… as you may portray it; it’s about capturing information and following it up and…
PS : What is the relationship like between you and the Portuguese police now?
GMC : To be honest we don’t have much in the way of direct, errr… contact. Obviously we’ve still got, errr… Portuguese lawyers and, errm… and in many ways the system’s very different, errm… We’ve had a good relationship with the Leicestershire police who sent out FLO’s etcetera, errm… and it… you know, things have changed there, and the way they deal with it, and we believe that they’re going to take on the Child Rescue Alert within Portugal as well, so there… there’s been real progress there, so… errr… (8)
FB : …at the checkout, while you quickly nipped back to get something else; when you came back you said, ‘where’s Katrice?’ And no one had had seen anything; she’d just gone…
SL : No, she’d just vanished into thin air basically.
FB : And there was nothing at all?
SL : Nothing. Nothing at all.
FB : No leads, no evidence, nothing.
SL : No.
FB : And Natasha, being big-sister to Katrice, you were there that day…
Natasha Lee : I… I stayed at home.
FB : You stayed at home?
NL : Yeah… yeah.
FB : You… but… but what do you remember? As a little girl, what were you, 7?
NL : 7, yeah. I… I sort of remember the morning, you know, mum rushing round trying to get everything ready for her birthday party and sort of saying to mum, you know, ‘What you doing?’; She said, ‘Well, I’m getting ready to go shopping’; ‘Oh well, I don’t wanna go’; ‘Well fine, if you don’t wanna go, you stay here with your uncle Cliff’. And then sort of off they went and the next thing I know is my dad’s opening up the front door and I’m sat playing with my toys on the sofa and he just says, ‘We can’t find Katrice’. And I’m thinking, ‘what d’you mean?’, you know. Because I lose a toy it turns up in a couple of hours, fine. And it wasn’t until we sort of left the flat and walked to the car and my mum is stood outside the car, and she’s just screaming and screaming and screaming, and then it suddenly hits me that that’s really bad; there’s something really, really not right. It’s not a toy, you know, it’s not a couple of hours; this is something really, really bad; something really, really wrong has happened.
FB : And 27-years-ago we weren’t a backward country. People were, you know… around Europe we understood when children went missing that this was a big emergency. What… what happened? What was the search like?
SL : You have to understand when… 27-years-ago, it sounds ridiculous now but things like mobile phones for Joe Public, Internet and, errm… computers, they weren’t an everyday thing like… like they are nowadays, so you had to very much rely on, errm… trying to get the press involved and trying to get it out across Reuters.
PS : It took 6-weeks for the German papers to get involved; it took 6-months for the British newspapers to get involved.
SL : Errm… We… unfortunately, we were also working against the military as well – though my husband was in the army, and they had a massive public relations office that could have worked with us really, and done things for us, the situation we were in.
PS : But the German police also reached the conclusion that she had wandered off and that she had fallen into the river and… and drowned.
SL : My daughter’s case has always been classified by the German police as the fact that my daughter disappeared due to an accident, and that’s how it is to this day.
FB : But they drained the river and there was no sign of her and everybody searched; there was nothing.
NL : They wouldn’t also take into account, at the time, that Katrice was absolutely petrified of water, so there’s no way that a 2-year-old girl, who… who cannot see the river from that NAAFI is gonna go, ‘Ooh, just go to that water and just sort of jump in’, you know, she wouldn’t get in the bath unless she was sat on my dad’s knee in the bath. She was absolutely petrified of water and they wouldn’t listen to us.
SL : Yeah, they’re saying my daughter, errr… managed to push her way through a packed supermarket; out through a door that only opened in [inaudible]; down a corridor; down a slope; past people that were selling raffle tickets; across a packed car park; over a hedge; and into the river.
PS : In both of those… in both of the case that we’ve heard here, errm… there appear to be initial failings from the local police; that things could have been done faster; should have been done faster; the investigations may, or may not, have been compromised. That… that surely from… from your point of view must be exasperating?
Chief Constable Peter Neroud : Yes, I mean, I mean, one of my main jobs is to make sure that we don’t get to the point where both these families have got to, i.e. that we… we get our children back very quickly, errr… because the longer it goes on the more… the more problematic it becomes. Errm… And… and also to make sure we’ve got much, much better working relationships with European colleagues and worldwide colleagues. I’m actually doing that this week, I’ve got… I’ve got Australia, New Zealand, Canada, The States and the European Union together this week to talk about sharing information; not just for this but for wider things.
FB : That’s marvellous but we’ve been talking about it since Madeleine disappeared, this… this search, the Amber Alert adoption from America, all the… that it… why isn’t it… why wasn’t it rolled out 2-years-ago? What’s the problem?
CCPN : Errm… well, one very practical reason is that we didn’t have a national agency; we have now. Errm… the UK’s has a very, errm… very devolved system and we… we’ve not had a single point where you can coordinate; we’ve now got one and we are moving apace and because, I agree with you, it should be there now. We… we’ve got a sys… I mean we have got Amber Alert. If a child went missing today we would be able to trigger Amber Alert. We would get stuff…
FB : How does it work? How… how would it work?
CCPN : I mean, the essence of it is, where the child goes missing, errm… and say that a child goes missing - say up where, errr… up in Leicestershire, I would… I would expect Leicestershire to trigger it to ring us very quickly, errr… we would provide specialist advice, because the first thing to know is: Is this the sort of case you want to trigger it for? Because it’s really important not to cry wolf with, you know, with… because we’ve… as you rightly said in the introduction there are sadly thousands of children who go missing; mostly because they want to, because something’s gone wrong at home – and could be a whole range of things – but a small number because they have been abducted or they… or… or in… in very difficult circumstances and we need to get them back very quickly. (9)
FB : How quickly can you ascertain that a child has been abducted and not just run off, or gone off in a mood, or…
CCPN : Yeah, should be very quick. I mean, we… we… a key part of the training for all officers is… is the kind of early risk assessment. I mean, to be honest, as a front… as a front… front line officer, I can still remember that feeling of, ‘This isn’t right. There’s just some… there’s… there’s factors here.
FB : Yep, instincts.
CCPN : …errm… and it’s our job to listen and act as quickly as possible.
FB : And then it… this comes over the radio, the television… does it? The… the missing person?
CCPN : Well, a whole range of things and the… the point that’s been made about now we’ve go the Internet, now we’ve got a whole range of things. We’re exploring some very, very rapid ways… we… we want to be able to get, errm… things like RSS feeds out to mobile phones; we want to get messages…
FB : RSS feeds?
PS : Ex-detective. Errm… how do you think that will affect your relationship with the Portuguese people and with the Portuguese police?
GMC : Well, it’s very much that we’re taking action against an individual and we want to make it clear the reason we’re taking that action is because we feel what he’s been saying is very much detrimental to the… to the search and the main, errr… tenet of what he is saying is that Madeleine is dead and if people believe that there can’t be an ongoing search. What we are certain about, from the information we have, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest Madeleine has been seriously harmed and, you know, it’s fundamental; without that evidence, she’s alive and the search is ongoing, so, errr…
KMC : It’s because of the negative effect on the search for Madeleine; that is the prime reason. We need to find Madeleine and we have to have the best chance possible of doing that and we believe what he’s doing is detrimental.
GMC : I want to make it clear the action is against Mr Amaral; it’s not against the Portuguese police or any other authorities; they work very hard, errr… in very difficult circumstances. We know it’s not perfect but we’re not interested in, you know, mistakes; what we’re interested in is looking forward and what can still be done, really. That’s the key thing.
KMC : I think there’s… if you don’t mind, there’s one important thing Peter and, errm… Natasha touched on and I think I appreciate now that families need to be investigated in these cases, and we’ve certainly had that, but it’s vital that the family is listened to. It really is, you know.
PS : We, errr… we thank you very much indeed for coming in today and, errr… the… now we’ve got two different days, haven’t we? We’re… we’re celebrating… celebrating! Commemorating, we’re… we’re publicising the day today and remembering these… these children… these lost children but the International Day is on the 24th, isn’t it?
(2) Les MC ont publié tellement de photos de Madeleine de 1 mois à presque 4 ans qu'il est parfois difficile de croire qu'il s'agit de la même petite fille.
(4) Trois heures après le constat de la disparition, la préoccupation des MC était de fermer les frontières, les ports, les aéroports. Quelle est la confirmation statistique de la relation causale suivante "si l'enfant n'est pas trouvé rapidement, rien n'empêche qu'il soit emmené au-delà des frontières" ?
(6) Si les gens ne cherchent pas Madeleine pour le bien de cette dernière, qu'ils le fassent au moins pour éliminer un ravisseur qui "pourrait courir toujours et prendre des enfants de manière récurrente".
(7) Cette phrase (Nous voulons nous assurer que littéralement rien n'aura été laissé de côté jusqu'à ce que nous trouvions Madeleine et qui l'a prise) n'est guère logique. Pourquoi ne devrait-on trouver Madeleine qu'au bout d'une mission impossible consistant à suivre toutes les pistes imaginables ? Qu'est-ce qui est important, remuer ciel et terre ou découvrir Madeleine ?
(8) Encore une fois Gerald MC esquive la question. On lui demande quels rapports il a avec la police portugaise, un an après le classement de l'affaire et il répond qu'il a des avocats portugais et a eu de bonnes relations avec les policiers du Leicestershire Constabulary venu comme officiers de liaison ! Ignore-t-il que le Portugal, qui alors assurait la présidence tournante de l'UE, a proposé début octobre 2007 la généralisation à tous les États de l'Union du dispositif d'alerte enlèvement entré en vigueur en France en février 2006 ?
(9) C'est bien parce que crier au loup indûment finirait par discréditer l'alerte que celle-ci n'est déclenché que si l'enlèvement est avéré. Elle n'aurait pu l'être dans le cas de Madeleine MC.