Première audition - 4/05/07 - 8.45pm
The interview begins at 8.45pm on May 4th 2007. Since the informant has no command of Portuguese in spoken or written form, an interpreter was called for: Natalia C.
On the matter in hand, we note that:
The informant is interviewed as a witness, She is part of a group who travelled to Portugal with the parents of the minor, Madeleine. She is Fiona's mother. She had accompanied her, her husband and her two small children. She has known the parents of the missing child, Kate and Gerald, for around four years, through her daughter. They have since become friends.
She states that the MC couple have three children, twins aged two and Madeleine, nearly four years. She thinks the idea of coming to Portugal came from her daughter. She believes her daughter knows Portugal.
The informant arrived in Portugal on April 28th at around 12.20/12.30 from Leicestershire to Faro and then to Praia da Luz. From Faro to the Ocean Club they they used the airport's shuttle service. After checking in, she was placed in apartment G5H with her family. (Her daughter, her son-in-law and their two small children)
Concerning the usual routines, the informant states that she only spent part of each afternoon with her family and that not always. Sometimes she read, she went shopping or did other things.
As for the mornings, she only had breakfast one day with her family, Wednesday, because it was raining. On the other days, she spent the mornings playing tennis.
Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 3.45pm and left at around 6.15pm to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 7pm. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.
They left the apartment at around 8.45 and accompanied by her son-in-law and her daughter, they went to join the rest of the group at the "TAPAS" restaurant. The MC couple were amongst the other friends at dinner. To our question, the informant told us that given that her daughter had an intercom allowing them to hear if the children were shouting or crying, no one went to check on the spot. However, she reported that Kate and Gerald as well as other couples went a few times, on a regular basis, to make sure their children were OK.
During one of these checks, Kate came back, frightened and nervous, even in panic, saying that Madeleine had disappeared, screaming, greatly alarmed [panic-stricken; terrified].
They immediately organised search parties, in the apartment, thinking that she could be hiding in there, then outside. In spite of help from the Ocean Club's employees, the searches were fruitless.
The informant does not know Madeleine well, because she lives a long way from the MCs, and she cannot say very much about Madeleine's personality.
Nevertheless, she reports that Madeleine was calm but active and energetic, with good manners. She was an attractive and a good child.
During this holiday, she has noticed nothing unusual or which could be linked to the investigation.
She has no other details to add. After reading with the interpreter, who explains to her, she goes on and signs.
Deuxième audition - 11.05.2007
That she came on holiday
to Portugal with the group which included Madeleine, this group
composed of nine adults and eight children. As to the purpose of the
individuals in the above mentioned group, she explains that they are
united [together] in four couples (among them was her daughter Fiona
and son-in-law David), and their children.
- Concerning her
relationship with the members of that group, adds that she would have
no direct relationship with them as they are individuals close to the
Payne couple.
- She thought the Payne
couple started a relationship of friendship, insofar as her
son-in-law, David, had attended the university together with Russell,
which will have been extended to two other couples (MC and
OB), because the members of those couples, except for Rachel and
Jane, were [also] practicing doctors.
- Asked, she states that
it is the first time that she has been on holiday with that group,
knowing, however, that some of those couples have already spent
holidays together on other occasions.
- With regard to this
trip she explains that she thought all details of the trip to
Portugal were handled by her daughter, Fiona; together with her
husband David, and aided by the tour operator "Marc Warner, via
Internet.
- She states that she
came on holiday at the invitation of her daughter Fiona and
son-in-law David - Adding that she does not know the reasons why
Portugal was chosen, nor why Praia da Luz and the "Ocean Garden
Club" in particular.
- She states that she
made her own reservation, only with regard to the plane, via Intemet,
unlike the other members of the group, whose reservations had been
made through the Payne couple. Asked, she explains that never before
had she been in Portugal, being sure that the first time that she was
here was this present holiday. That the whole group arrived in
Portugal on April 28 and they have also been housed in the tourist
resort buildings identified above, as initially planned. Because she
was asked, she clarified that she had stayed in apartment 5H,
together with the Payne family and their daughters (Lilly, two years,
and Scarlett, one year).
- Prompted about the
routine during the holiday period, she clarifies that she usually
took breakfast in their apartment, since the Restaurant "Millennium"
was quite removed from the building in which she was staying.
- Still, she explains, on
May 2, the eve of disappearance of Madeleine she had taken her
breakfast in the restaurant "Millennium", since it was
raining that day and she did not have an opportunity to partake of
the morning sports.
She added that in the
days preceding the disappearance of Madeleine, after breakfast she
would play sport (especially tennis), after which she would go to the
supermarket Bastista to make the purchases for lunch. In return, she
points out that several families who made up the group met in the
Payne's apartment to have lunch together, explaining that this was
due to the fact that it is the larger apartment.
- After lunch the
children took a nap, usually staying in her care, since they [the
adults] went with the Paynes to continue with, together, the leisure
activities to which the holidays were dedicated. The purpose of those
activities, it is clear, that it was usual to go to the beach, pool
and practice several sports monitored by the resort. Also she went to
the beach at times with the Paynes and the children when they were
not at the Kids Club.
- In the late afternoon,
from 16.45 to 17.30, the children had dinner at Restaurant "Tapas",
after which they were taken to the apartment to prepare for sleep,
which usually occurred at 19:00. That said, the family Payne, the
deponent included, prepared for the dinner that usually occurred
around 20.45 in the restaurant "Tapas." The question asked,
she added that the restaurant always reserved the same table for the
group at the only table that was capable of seating a group composed
of nine people. Asked, she states that, although it is positioned in
front of the balconies at the rear of the residential block, the
angle of vision can not permit full control over possible access by
people to the interior of ground-floor apartment patios that are
there - especially since the restaurant is covered by a transparent
oilcloth which hampers vision. Asked who has done the booking of the
restaurant, says that it has been done by Rachael, explaining that
although the dinner is scheduled for 20:30, the group never gathered
before 20H45/21H00 due to successive delays of several couples.
- The question asked,
regarding the fact that, possibly, on the first day it was RUSSELL
who had made the reservation at the restaurant, she admits that as
possible, although she cannot be sure which of the two (Rachael or
Russell) would have done it. Prompted, she says that, from memory,
the dinners usually ended around 23:00 the time at which they
returned to their apartments where they slept. Concerning May 3, the
date of the occurrence of the facts now under investigation, she
states that she did the things she has generally described above
being unaware of anything, nor having seen anything, that might
relate to the disappearance of Madeleine.
- Prompted to report the
events that had unfolded in period between 19H00 and 22H40 of that
day, the deponent states that around 19:00 she had gone together with
the Payne couple and their children to the apartment in order to
prepare them for bed. Then, as usual, the adults prepared themselves
for dinner. In this matter, she recalled that they had been late with
these preparations because they only managed to get to Restaurant
around 21.00.
- Asked, she adds that
she went to the restaurant in the company of her daughter and
son-in-law.
- Asked directly if
someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the Payne
couple) for dinner the witness said no.
- Asked if there was the
possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey
between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
- That night she judges
to have arrived at the restaurant close to 21:00, in the company of
the Payne couple.
- That, at that time, the
whole group were at the restaurant. The witness did not recall, but
thinks that perhaps Gerald and Matthew had not been in the restaurant
along with the other members of the group.
- In this regard, asked
specifically whether, on the journey to the restaurant, if they had
passed either of the two individuals described in the preceding
paragraph, she answered categorically no.
- Questioned about the
members who, during the dinner, had absented themselves from the
restaurant, the witness says that, as she recalls, there were some
people who left, failing to identify which, except for Russell who
had left the restaurant and taken a little more time than usual due
to, from what she knows, his daughter had been sick.
- Asked, she states that
it would be normal for one member of each of the couples to get up
regularly in order to check in their apartments if the children were
well. She clarifies that the practice was for each couple to check
their own children, it not being usual for anyone to check the
children of other couples.
- The question asked, she
thinks that up to the date of the disappearance it had never happened
that anyone had entered the apartment of another couple in order to
check their offspring. Nevertheless, it seems that the couple Payne
and the witness, did not make any trips to apartments, because they
had an intercom called the "baby monitor", through which
sounds or noises of the children could be heard.
- Prompted to state for
the record the movements that occurred that night, during the above
dinner, the witness reiterated that she could not say specifically
who had left nor when they had done so.
- Therefore, she can only
say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate MC returned (contredit
third timeline) to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating
to others the fact of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the
reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from
Kate, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the
restaurant and went to the apartment of the couple MC in order to
find out what was going on.
In turn, as relates to
her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five
minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not
returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment MC.
- In that apartment she
found that Kate was completely in panic, in "state of shock ".
- Because she was asked,
she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door
of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she
went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found Kate and
the twin siblings of Madeleine.
- She added that she did
not remember too much detail about the scenario that she found in
that bedroom, other that what she said above. However, she states
that Kate had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom,
she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open.
Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if
the window was or was not open.
- However, she wants to
stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in
order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by
hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her.
Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the
apartment the window would have been closed.
- Because she was asked,
she says she does not know if the window, and the shutter, of the
couple's bedroom were open or not, in that she did not enter that
room.
- Prompted about the
conditions of light inside the apartment at the time, the witness
believes that they were good, judging that the lights were lit and
she recalls no darkness. Regarding the bedroom previously occupied by
Madeleine, she does not remember if the lights were lit, but knows
that when she entered the twins were still sleeping in their beds,
which makes her think that maybe those lights were switched off. She
added that, for her to see the twins and their cradles, and the bed
of Madeleine, the darkness would not be complete, but that the room
had some coming from the light of the lounge.
- She adds that that
night, and after the occurrence of the facts under investigation,
have been in the apartment on two separate occasions. At the time
described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After
this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well
as the camera of the couple MC and "baby monitor" of
her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment.
- The question being
asked about the people that were inside the apartment of MC at
that time, the witness said that the MC couple were present
(although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having
seen Gerald), and Fiona, not remembering any other people that were
there. However, she admits the possibility of their being [others]
inside the apartment, including David, in that, as mentioned above,
all of them had gone to the apartment following the news that Kate
had given. Elle ne peut rien en savoir.
- The question asked, she
states to know that male members of the group undertook a search
around [outside] the apartment to try to locate Madeleine, which was
absolutely fruitless. The deponent states that Fiona had asked her to
move to their daughters to make sure that everything would be well
with them, hence the deponent will have returned to her apartment
from which she did not leave.
- Asked, she states to be
unaware of any type of problems affecting the family, professional,
loving, etc., for any of the group members, either in our country or
anywhere else in the world.
- She does not know if
any of the group members knows anyone residing in Portugal,
particularly in the Algarve, or anyone who has been here on holiday
in the same period.
- Prompted she says that
during these holidays all group members made their movements on foot,
denying that any of them had rented cars or that they could possibly
have driven cars of others, [nor that] they were occasionally
available.
- She adds that none of
the group members left the village of Praia da Luz.
- During that period, as
far as she is aware, none of the group had formed any kind of
acquaintance or relationship with other persons.
- Prompted, she explains
that in all the dinners during the holidays only members of the group
had participated, never having any strangers with them at the table
that they usually occupied.
- Asked, she says that in
the days leading up to the disappearance of Madeleine, or at any
other time, she neither saw nor found any abnormal situation that
could by itself be interpreted as having any correlation with the
facts of the investigation.
Audition rogatoire (extraits)
Il serait naïf de croire que les TP7 ne se sont pas concertés avant les entretiens. Leurs narrations ont changé entre mai 2007 et avril 2008.
11 mai 2007 :
Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no..........In this regard, asked specifically whether, on the journey to the restaurant, if they had passed either of the two individuals described in the preceding paragraph, she answered categorically not.
11 avril 2008 :
”Well we arrived about, I don’t know, ten to nine, five to nine, which was very late. Err and the thing that I didn’t mention at the original err interview in Portugal was that I do vaguely remember seeing Matt, he was coming up because I think he made some joke about coming up to see where we were because we were so late, but he was actually on his way to check err check the children.”
4078 ”And it’s two
thousand and eight. We’re in an interview room at the Headquarters
at Leicestershire Police and I am DC Sophie FERGUSON and I work in
the Major Crime Unit at Leicestershire Police. Can you just give me
your full name please?”
Reply ”Dianne
WEBSTER.”
4078 ”Okay, you’re
here at the request of the Portuguese Police and you’re obviously
aware of the reasons why you’re here and they will at some point,
although they’re not monitoring you today, they will be viewing the
interview. Now you’ve been given a letter from us outlining the
objectives for the interview but please ask if at any time there’s
anything that you want clarifying or if you want me to speak up or to
talk more slowly…”
Reply ”Yeah.”
4078 ”Or more loudly
just tell me, and your time and co-operation today is obviously
appreciated by us. I just ask you to be patient with me as no doubt
we’ll be covering things that you have gone over time and time
again on your own and, you know, amongst the group and with the
Police in Portugal and with me before.”
Reply ”Yes, yeah.”
4078 ”I’m going to
ask you to concentrate as much as you can and try to recall what you
heard, saw and did around the third of May two thousand and seven,
and as I said earlier, please let me know if you need to take a
break. I tend to ask fairly open questions and then sort of more
closed questions just to clarify points if we need to, okay?”
Reply ”Okay.”
...
Reply ”Oh no, no and
originally err my recollection is that the, the holiday that, that
err we eventually went on err I think originally it was Fiona and
Dave that err booked it and invited me and my husband along if we
wanted to go on it. He didn’t want to go because its not his sort
of holiday and then later on it err it grew that there was other,
other people going along as well, which I was unaware of at the time
and err I sort of said to Dave well you know if you’ve got friends
going forget about me, you know, I won’t, I won’t come and he
said no, no you must come along and so that’s how I came to be on
the holiday.”
4078 ”Had you met
any of the rest of the group before that holiday?”
Reply ”Err yes I’d
met them all previously, I knew err Jane and Russell probably better
than any of them, I knew Kate and Gerry err Rachael I’d met before
but I think, I don’t remember meeting Matt although I think they
were at Fiona and Dave’s wedding I may have met him before but err
I didn’t meet him really until, or get to know him until that
holiday.”
4078 ”And was it
just at Fiona and Dave’s wedding that you’d met the others or
more frequent than that?”
Reply ”Well no I
knew err Jane and Russell because when they lived in Leicester they,
well Russell was Dave’s best man and err I knew, I knew them
before, before then err and I’m trying to think actually, I know
I’d met Jane but I don’t think I’d met Russell err but they
were close friends of err Fiona and Dave until they moved away to
Exeter.”
4078 ”And were Gerry
and Kate…”
Reply ”And Gerry and
Kate I didn’t meet them till Fiona and Dave’s wedding but I knew
of them because I knew they were err Fiona and Dave’s err friends
err and I knew they’d been on holiday with them before. I remember
seeing photographs of Kate and Gerry on holiday with them and Kate
was pregnant with Madeleine at the time.”
4078 ”Okay, so just
to summarise then, Jane and Russell you were quite familiar with.”
Reply ”Mm.”
4078 ”And the others
you’d sort of met them and you got to know them as the holiday went
on.”
...
4078 ”Yeah, and what
everyone else has said then, you are the only ones on the first
floor.”
Reply ”We were the
only ones on the first floor, we had the, we had a bigger apartment
than the others,, FAUX err which is what Dave, Dave had originally err
asked for anyway because he wanted to have err a separate bedroom I
think for the girls, although they were in cots, and err I, I just
slept on the err there was a folding bed in the liv, the sort of
living room area, and that’s where I slept, although there were two
beds in one of the bedrooms, that’s also where Lily was sleeping in
her cot so I didn’t err didn’t want to sleep in the same room as
her.”
..., I’ll try not to interrupt you and if you just tell me what you can remember.”
Reply ”Err, right,
so we arrived there on the err the Saturday and it’s all very vague
I have to say, we did, we did err we all met up at the Ocean Club,
I’m trying to think where it was, err because it was the beginning
of a, of a new weeks holiday makers if you like they, they err Mark
Warner err would, would give a run down on what’s available and all
this so I think we all gathered err I’m sure it was in the, in the,
was it the Tapas err down by the pool area, I think it, I think it
must have been and err at that point the, whoever was in charge of
the tennis or the sailing or whatever activities would, would give a
little err talk about what’s available that they, that they sort of
were in charge of and at that point you could err out your names down
for whatever activities you want to do during the week and err I’d
never played tennis, I’ve played badminton but not tennis and I
thought it’d be quite a good idea to have some tennis lessons,
which err I put my name down for and Kate and Jane. I can’t
remember if Rachael did, I don’t think Rachael did put down for
tennis lessons I can’t remember. Err so that was more or less err
because the tennis lessons run for five mornings err that was more or
less part of the mornings taken up with err tennis. Err on the
Saturday night we went, we ate at the Millennium restaurant which was
the main one which was further away from where we were staying, err
so we all ate there, the children as well, everybody, and err and
then that, that night I think we all just went back to our apartments
err I think we were all pretty tired.”
4078 ”A long day.”
Reply ”Yeah, yeah
err and then Sunday I mean everyday is so much the same I just find
it very difficult to recollect.”
...and Rachael somehow managed to get a block booking every night for eight thirty. Err so that was why we ended up going there every night because it was near the apartments.”
4078 ”Was there
anywhere else that you could have gone nearby?”
Reply ”Well only the
Millennium restaurant which was quite a trek away and to be honest I
wasn’t impressed with the food anyway there.”
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”It was self
service and I don’t really err didn’t think much to the food.
(Sighs) Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday I remember it rained, it was
raining so the tennis lesson err which normally started about, I
think it was supposed to start at nine o’ clock but because people
had children to get into err the, the play groups or whatever err our
instructor decided I think that we’d start at quarter past nine so
that was when tennis lesson started and it was for an hour I think,
the tennis lesson. Err but on the Wednesday morning it was err
delayed if you like, it wasn’t cancelled, we did have it later.”
4078 ”Right.”
Reply ”Err and that,
that morning, I’d only ever gone to the Millennium twice for
breakfast which is where they went for breakfast that, that was the
only place you could have breakfast err and I didn’t go because it
was too much of a rush having the tennis lesson supposedly starting
at quarter past nine, to trail all the way down there for breakfast
and then have to rush back and play tennis.”
...
Reply ”Well no
nothing, you know, we were all looking forward to having a, a good
week really. I mean it was, the weather was not very good, it was
quite cold err and err I’m not sure whether the first, the first,
first night err I remember giving a jumper to Kate that I’d, you
know, I’d taken a sort of parka zip up thing err that might have
been the first night I don’t know, because she’d only got a, a
flimsy shirt on or whatever. It was cold and I lent her my jumper and
after that we went down err some of us had jackets on, you know, it
was quite cold, and the Tapas restaurant was, although it had a roof
on it and it had a err sort of Perspex screen down the side it was
actually open at the end so you could get a, quite a err breeze
blowing through, err but no I mean we were just all err having a,
having a nice meal and, and it was like that every night really.”
4078 ”Did a routine
develop then? Well it must have done I suppose, in the fact that it
being booked at the same time every day.”
Reply ”Well yes I
mean this is, this is why I think Madeleine was taken because we
were, we were targeted from an early, early point I think, you know,
we were doing the same thing everyday, every night, same routine.”
Reply ”Lunch I think
we had that in the apartment err there was a Supermarket just down
the road, which I think I went a few times and did shopping, err put
some stuff in the house because obviously it was an apartment with a
kitchen and whatnot. Err I spent a lot of time making sandwiches.”
4078 ”Did you do the
preparing for, because I understand a lot of people visited for lunch
time because it was the biggest apartment?”
Reply ”Yeah, yeah.”
4078 ”So did you end
up doing all the preparations?”
Reply ”Yeah I used
to err I volunteered, I wasn’t expected to but err but I can’t, I
can’t, I wouldn’t say that was everyday. You see I get confused
now between the actual weeks holiday and the, the weeks after
Madeleine was taken.”
4078 ”How long were
you there for afterwards?”
Reply ”Two, another
two weeks.”
4078 ”So they kind
of all blur into one don’t they.”
Reply ”Yeah because
after that you know I was doing lunch for everybody, and we were all,
we were all sort of err having a muck in and, but it was always in,
in the apartment we were in because it was the biggest one err but
the holiday week err if Fiona and Dave, if they went they were doing,
I think they did a bit of windsurfing and sailing as well so on those
mornings if, if I’d finished the tennis they were obviously away
doing something so I was on my own really. Err so yeah I would just
sit in the, in the veranda or go and sit down by the pool.
(Inaudible) you know I don’t have any clear recollection of exactly
what I did, when.”
...
4078 ”Tell me about
the Wednesday then as far as you can remember from there.”
Reply ”Well that
morning I did go to the Millennium with Dave and Fiona err for
breakfast because there was no tennis and I think we, we sat there
and I think, I seem to recollect seeing Kate and Gerry then who were
sitting with us and I think they’d just finished their breakfast or
something, again I’m not clear on that.”
...
Reply ”The beach
wasn’t busy, at that time of year it was still quite cold and err
its not what I would call a busy beach err we did eat in the err
there was a, err, sort of café restaurant on the beach, I can’t
remember what its called err I remember we visited that err earlier
on in the week I think and that, that was always quite busy that
particular restaurant.”
4078 ”I think I
know the answer to the question I’m going to ask you because I
think we covered this when I met you, you know, all those months ago.
...
...
Reply ”Well there
was a play area just by where the tennis courts err are and err yeah
I mean we used to go down there, I think sometimes in the afternoons
the, later in the afternoon go down there and, and play with the
children, err and again after they’d had their high tea there’d
be time spent playing with them before we all went back to our
apartments to put them to bed and prepare for our eve, our evening.”
4078 ”And you said
that you think that because of your routine was going to Tapas every
night that you’d been targeted, if you like, early on.”
Reply ”Definitely,
definitely.”
4078 ”Was there
anything about Madeleine, from what you knew of her that would lead
somebody to target her in particular?”
Reply ”Well she was
a lovely little girl, you know, err very petite, err quite a striking
girl, and I don’t, I mean, well she was blonde, or fair haired, but
it may have been also that whether the fact the end apartment was
perhaps more accessible than any of the others. I really don’t know
but I do think she was definitely targeted and I think err at the
kids club, I think sometimes the children, the older children, were
taken on outings to err I think they went to a beach so again she
could have been watched, pinpointed then, err where they had high tea
was on a raised area, it wasn’t in the Tapas restaurant it was
another bit that was higher up, beside a wall which again they could
be watched, the children could be seen from err beyond this, this
wall.”
4078 ”And how would
you describe her personality?”
Reply ”Well she was
just a normal happy, little girll, you know she was a nice girl.”
4078 ”And the meals
at the Tapas, describe to me the routine of the people checking on
the children.”
Reply ”Well I mean
the checks were done very, very regularly and very frequent as far as
I remember but again because you know there’s nine people sitting
at a big round table you’re not always aware of who’s doing what,
when, I’m not clock watching or anything and err Fiona and Dave had
a monitor so they, you know, that worked from sitting at the table
and err you know I had no reason to sit and watch what people are
doing, when they’re going, how often they’re going. I know there
was lots of to’ing and fro’ing you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t
just one person going every hour or anything like that, it was more
frequent than that.”
4078 ”But you
personally weren’t involved in the checks because you had no need
to be because David and Fiona had the monitor.”
Reply ”No, no,
yeah.”
4078 ”Okay I’ll
just move my chair I’ve got backache. Are you okay to carry on for
a while?”
Reply ”Yeah.”
4078 ”Yeah. Well
we’ll move on then to the Thursday which I’m sure is perhaps a
bit clearer in your mind because you’ve had to go through it so
often, and if you could juts tell me what you remember starting from
the morning as far as you can remember through the day.”
Reply ”Right the,
the morning was the last tennis lesson and err my tennis suddenly
improved and then after that, again I would have just gone back to
the apartment and showered and whatever, err Fiona and Dave were err
I’m trying to remember if that was the day that they were err
supposed to be windsurfing but it was too rough and they did go out
instead or whether that was another day. Sorry I can’t, I can’t
remember that bit. Lunch, lunch we would have had in the apartment,
now the other thing I remember is because Scarlet and Lily at that
point both had an afternoon sleep, there’d be certain amount of
time each afternoon spent in the apartment err…”
4078 ”Was that for
you or for David and Dianne, or took it in turns?”
Reply ”For, for err
well David and Fiona. I mean Dave might be out doing something.
Sometimes the men would go off and play tennis in the afternoon
because you could actually go and book a court and play tennis. Err
so I mean there was always somebody in the apartment, it was
generally Fiona I would say, and err and I would be there as well on
call I think and the children were having their afternoon nap. So
afternoon activities wouldn’t start until they’d had their nap
err and that particular day err Dave I know was windsurfing in the
afternoon, I’ve just got a picture of him walking out of the sea in
his wetsuit. Err and err Russell and Matt took out a boat because I
remember err Russell, who doesn’t know anything about sailing, had
to rescue Matt.”
4078 ”Yeah he’s
told us all about that, yeah.”
Reply ”Yeah, again
I’ve got a photograph of them on the beach after that, so after
the, after the girls had had their sleep we obviously went down to
the beach err and we all went down apart, well again Kate and Gerry,
I think they were more into tennis than the beach, so I didn’t see,
see them there that day. Err so there was myself, Fiona, Rachael, and
Jane with all the children. We went down to the beach that day and
just played around for a bit err and then the men came in from their
activities and we then went, because it was quite late, we decided
rather than rush the children, to high tea at the Ocean Club. We’d
just give them high tea in this beach restaurant that we’d been to
before. So the children had high tea, or their tea, in this err
restaurant, beach café, err…”
4078 ”Who else was
there around that time?”
Reply ”Who else?
Well it was, it was all of us err apart from Kate and Gerry and their
children, yeah we were all there and err the men, I think because err
Dave, I don’t know if the other two had them as well, they had to
be back for tennis or something or some tennis thing, I don’t know
if its due to start at six or something like that. So they, they,
they went ahead err before us and we waited until the children had
finished having their ice creams and whatnot and then err we went
back to the Ocean Club err I’m trying to remember if we went to the
play area or whether I went, because it was a common thing every
night the parents would play with the children in this play area and
I can’t honestly remember if I went with them that night or whether
I just went straight back to the apartment because it was quite late
and Fiona and Dave are not good at time keeping so we were getting
later and later each night in, in getting down to the restaurant.”
4078 ”Everyone else
says that yeah.”
Reply ”(Laughs) err
so I honestly can’t remember if I was out, out there at the play
area that night or whether I just went back and because we all needed
to have a shower and everything. Fiona went out for a run I know
that, she went out for a little run, err ah I wish I could remember.”
4078 ”It’s
perfectly understandable that you can’t. Did you see Kate and Gerry
at all during the day that day?”
Reply ”Err well only
in the morning when, at the tennis, err I’m get, do you know I’m
getting confused because I know there was one err evening where they
were, they were all playing, and they were playing tennis and we
were, there’s the tennis courts were down a few steps that was more
than the rest of the area and err we were with the children watching
the men play but I can’t remember what night that was.”
4078 ”You said
earlier that the men had had to go back from the beach they were
conscious of the time because they had something to go to, was that
tennis?”
Reply ”That was
tennis yeah.”
4078 ”But it wasn’t
the only time that the men played at that time of day?”
Reply ”No I don’t
think so.”
4078 ”Okay.”
Reply ”I don’t
think so but I can’t be a hundred percent sure.”
4078 ”Do you
remember if you saw Madeleine that day?”
Reply ”I don’t
think I did see her that day because the fact that we’d gone down
to the beach in the afternoon and we hadn’t got the kid, the high
tea, had we gone to the high tea err with the children then yes we
would have seen her, but err I don’t recollect err seeing her
because in the morning at the tennis she would have been in the kids
club.”
4078 ”And if the
time that you were watching the men play tennis, well if it was that
day or a different day, can you remember much about that time if
that’s sort of clear in your mind?”
Reply ”What, in
relation to…”
4078 ”If, I’m
just, it seemed to be clearer in your mind than some other things,
you said you can remember standing there and the courts were lower
and you can remember standing watching.”
Reply ”Well yeah I
can remember err I can remember watching the men playing tennis but I
can’t put a day on it, I can’t, I can’t remember err I don’t
know if it was that, I don’t think it was that night I think it
might be another night.”
4078 ”Okay.”
Reply ”Because err
when err when Madeleine went missing I, you know, I, my memory would
have been fresher then and I don’t, I don’t remember seeing her
on that day.”
4078 ”Yeah. So
whether you stayed to watch the tennis for a bit or not, you would
have then ended up back at your apartment.”
Reply ”Yeah, yeah.”
4078 ”And getting
ready for the, going for a meal.”
Reply ”Well we were
very late that night.”
4078 ”And Fiona had
gone for a run.”
Reply ”Yeah.”
4078 ”And then the,
you arrived a little late. What can you remember of the evening
then?”
Reply ”Well we
arrived about, I don’t know, ten to nine, five to nine, which was
very late. Err and the thing that I didn’t mention at the original
err interview in Portugal was that I do vaguely remember seeing Matt,
he was coming up because I think he made some joke about coming up to
see where we were because we were so late, but he was actually on his
way to check err check the children.”
4078 ”Right.”
Reply ”Err so I do,
I do remember that although I didn’t remember it clearly at the
time err so we got down to the table err I think we ordered our
starters.”
4078 ”Do you
remember who was there when you got there?”
Reply ”Well Matt
obviously wasn’t because we we’d just passed him but of course I
don’t remember this at the time, and I think in my original
statement I thought maybe Gerry wasn’t there, but maybe he was, you
know, I don’t know.”
4078 ”You can’t be
sure?”
Reply ”I can’t be
sure because it’s not something that I think I need to remember,
you know at the time, its not something you need to remember.”
4078 ”No, and it was
no different from any of the other nights.”
Reply ”That’s
right.”
4078 ”People are
coming and going.”
Reply ”Yeah it was
err we didn’t all sit in the same positions every night, you know,
we (inaudible).”
4078 ”Can you
remember where you sat on that particular night?”
Reply ”Err yes I sat
sort of with my back almost towards the, err kitchen bit and err
Russell was on my right, Matt was on my left and I think it was then
Dave and Gerry, Fiona, Kate, Jane and Rachael.”
4078 ”So if you were
to look straight ahead from where you were sitting, where would you
be facing?”
Reply ”I’d be, I
would be facing to the, err, the apartments would be over there, and
I’d be looking towards the exit I suppose.”
4078 ”Okay. I have
got a plan here. It’s not in relation to the Tapas I’m afraid,
but if you’d like to draw a diagram if it would help you then
you’re very welcome to. This is just a, it’s a, it’s being
referred to as DM2, that’s just an exhibit reference.”
Reply ”Yeah.”
4078 ”Then we said
we all note what we’re looking at. I can’t get my bearings.
There’s the pool.”
Reply ”Yeah.”
4078 ”So this,
sorry, I’ve got it the wrong way round for you haven’t I.”
Reply ”Yeah so
that’s the entrance in there, I presume this is supposed to be the
Tapas err…”
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”Restaurant
there, yeah so I, I would have been sitting sort of looking sort of
at that angle and then…”
4078 ”Okay.”
Reply ”Down there.”
4078 ”And having not
been there I can’t picture how, how the view is. Is it obstructed
by things? Or would you be able to see people walking up and down?”
Reply ”What, up and
down where?”
4078 ”If I’m
right…”
Reply ”This is, this
is enclosed.”
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”Err on, on
that side, well when I say enclosed it’s got one of these Perspex
sheets, a flexible one, whether it rolls up in the summer you know
err…”
4078 ”And when
people left to do their checks on the children would you have, if you
had have been looking, would you have been able to see them go once
they’d left the Tapas?”
Reply ”What, once
they’d actually left there?”
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”Well they’d
have to come out here onto the, err that road so no, once, once
they’d gone through there you wouldn’t, wouldn’t see them.”
4078 ”Okay.”
Reply ”Because there
was a wall.”
4078 ”Right.”
Reply ”There’s
wall, sort of walled area in that, and of course there was a footpath
that went along there as well, which another way you could get into
the apartments is the footpath there and you could err well the
lower, the lower ones, Kate and Gerry’s had steps from this side up
to their apartment.”
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”But the other
ones, if you walked along that path there were gateways into the
ground floor apartments there as well and in fact for us to get to
our apartment we could have, instead of going that way, we could go
that way. But as I say there’s a wall, there’s a wall all around
there.”
4078 ”Okay. So
you’ve got to the Tapas and you’ve taken your place at the table,
you say you’ve just passed Matt so he’s not there and you’re
not sure, oh dear that doesn’t look very nice out there.” Reply
”Oh my goodness.”
4078 ”Can you see
that?”
Reply ”Well it was
forecast.”
4078 ”Err, so you’re
not sure whether Gerry or not was there when you arrived, and you say
you would have ordered your starters.”
Reply ”Ordered the
starters and err we had our, we had our starters and err we’d
ordered our, our main course. Now I can’t remember, I know that err
Jane err during that time, you see there, I can’t remember it was
Jane or Russell when they went back to check on their children, Evie
had been err sick, so I think err I think it might, might have been
Russell that found her sick and he came back and I think Jane went
back then and that might have been, yeah that must have been at the
time when err no, I don’t know. I know they had to sort of err
relieve each other because Evie had been sick.”
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”One of them
would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled
down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone
back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err
we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered
steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he
said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once
Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of
gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could
come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for,
I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I
wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is
that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked
him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err
Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running
in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s
gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
4078 ”How did she
look?”
Reply ”Well I don’t
know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take
in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a
table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know,
stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you
know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in
case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know
what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh
she can’t be, you know. Err so I, I stayed at the table in case
Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the
restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve
no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was
that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my
original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can
you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very
vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate
and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just
terrible.”
Elle ne dit pas ce qu'elle a déclaré dans ses deux premières dépositions : quand elle est allée la première fois au 5A, Kate était seule. Là-dessus Fiona est revenue d'un tour du pâté de maisons jusqu'au Batista et a demandé à sa mère d'aller chercher les objets laissés au restaurant. Dianne ensuite est allée pour la deuxième fois au 5A et cette fois, G était là.
4078 ”What did you
see when you got there?”
Reply ”What did I
see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely
distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make
the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you
just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I
remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was
sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s
been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open,
the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I,
with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it
which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with
something.”
4078 ”What could you
see of Madeleine’s bed?”
Reply ”Well the, it
was neatly turn, what I remember the cover was neatly turned back. I
mean her bed was right in the err corner, you went in the door and it
was, you’d have to look round the door to err see it, and err it
was just neatly turned back and she just wasn’t there.”
4078 ”Do you
remember who else was around when you back to the apartment?”
Reply ”I think, well
Fiona was there I think and err Rachael, I remember seeing Rachael
and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just
absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just
absolutely beside himself. The men, the other men I think were, had
gone out looking, running around shouting Madeleine, and Fiona, Fiona
wanted me to go back and err keep, I mean obviously everybody’s
concerned for their own children as well and I think also there’d
been things left at the table, like err cameras and Rachael’s
jacket and things so I, I err, I think I went back to the table then
to pick up err what had been left behind, I’m not sure, I think the
monitor was there as well and one of the staff at the restaurant
asked me what had happened and I just said one of the children has
gone missing.”
Salcedas était venu aux nouvelles, mais quand DW était restée seule à table.
4078 ”Do you have
any idea what time it was by that point?”
Reply ”No err you
see I can’t remember how long I sat at the table before I went up
to see what was going on.”
4078 ”But when you
went back the Tapas was still open? The staff were still around?”
Reply ”Yeah, yeah.”
4078 ”Do you
remember how much you’d drank that night?”
Reply ”Not much, we
hadn’t been there very long really.”
4078 ”I’m assuming
it was wine at the table was it?”
Reply ”Mm.”
4078 ”Was there
anything different that you drank?”
Reply ”Err (sighs) I
don’t think so, I mean sometimes err some of us had a beer, me
included, at the beginning of the evening, you know, before we
started the meal, but after that it was err wine and the wine was
free, you know, you could have as much as you like but despite what
they say in the papers it was nothing like err you know we didn’t
get drunk and outrageous or anything like that.”
4078 ”Yeah, and as
you say you’d only been there an hour really hadn’t you?”
Reply ”Yeah.”
4078 ”So you’re
recollection or your, the way you saw things on that night wasn’t
affected by alcohol? You…”
Reply ”Oh no, no not
at all.” Ah ah !!
4078 ”Okay, so
you’ve been back to the Tapas and you’ve collected bits and
pieces that people have left lying around. You mentioned a camera, or
cameras, had there been many photos taken that evening?”
Reply ”Err there
hadn’t, I don’t think there’d been any taken that evening and I
think err I can’t remember who, it was either, it was either Kate
or err Rachael, it might have been Kate, who’d brought their camera
because they hadn’t taken any photographs err at all in the
evening. I think I was the only one that ever took any photographs in
the evening and that was about the second night we were there, I just
took pictures of everybody sitting round the table but I didn’t get
any of he surrounding areas err but because we hadn’t been really
sat there that long no pictures were taken.”
4078 ”Can you
remember what conversation was going on in the time before Kate
discovered Madeleine missing?”
Reply ”Well again
now, because err you know when you’ve got a group of nine people
you’re not all talking…”
4078 ”No.”
Reply ”In the middle
of the table, you know, I would be, I was probably talking to Russell
when he came back you know and talking about the fact he’d got a
new steak, he didn’t get a warmed up one. Err no I can’t remember
any conversation, I mean obviously one of the jokes err probably was
the fact of err Russell rescuing Matt, being able to steer the boat
to pick him up out the water, you know.”
4078 ”Were you aware
of Kate mentioning about Madeleine being awake the night before?”
Reply ”Err no, not
at that point, I didn’t know anything about that.”
4078 ”So that
became…”
Reply ”That was…”
4078 ”Known to you
after Madeleine had gone?”
Reply ”That was
after, because I remember err once I’d gone back to our apartment
you know I sat, sat out on the veranda, I felt, felt quite helpless
really, I mean I had to stay there and look after the two children
and I just remember err Kate screaming, banging, hitting things and
she was shouting, she says we’ve, we’ve let her down, you know,
it was really very distressing.”
4078 ”And how, I was
just going to ask you a very leading question, then what happened
after that?”
Reply ”What, after
err…”
4078 ”You were back
at that apartment you say you just sat out on the balcony and felt
helpless.”
Reply ”Yeah, you see
there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together
because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking
for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what
point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment
to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can
only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the
apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of
going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with
Kate.”
4078 ”Do you
remember where you went when you had a little look?”
Reply ”Err well I
wandered about, because I’ve got no sense of direction, but I
certainly wandered about err to where they had, there was road works
going on but I didn’t feel too happy being about on my own at that
err because it was quite late.”
4078 ”Did you notice
anybody else around when you were out?”
Reply ”No I didn’t,
err and that’s what made it seem creepy, the fact I was wandering
about on my own.”
4078 ”What was the
traffic like around your apartments and around the Tapas at that time
of year?”
Reply ”I wouldn’t,
I wouldn’t say there was err a great deal of traffic, nothing that
really made me think oh it’s you know, overrun by cars.”
4078 ”And on the
times where you’ve gone through the events that night, have you
ever recalled any specific car or car noise, somebody opening or
shutting car doors?”
Reply ”No, I just
can’t, you know, I’ve gone over this before in my head and I just
can’t think of anything.”
4078 ”Mm.”
Reply ”Some, you
know, you’re just not looking for…”
4078 ”So when you’ve
ended up back at the apartment, you described how helpless you felt
because you were confined to your apartment, is there anything that
you can describe about what was going on around? I mean you’ve
already described about Kate and the noises they made.”
Reply ”Well yeah the
noise, the noise coming from err Kate and Gerry’s apartment, err I
could hear lots of noises in the distance but this is when a lot of
the other people in the area had been woken up to all the noise. I
could hear err I guess it was the men you know in the distance, you
could just hear them shouting Madeleine, err I don’t know how far
away they were, they could have been down at the beach I have no idea
because sound does travel at night and err I mean I, I just err it
just seemed so unreal what was going on. Err I can’t, I mean I
just, I just sat there for hours, I couldn’t go to bed, I couldn’t
do anything.
4078 ”Did you get
any sleep that night?”
Reply ”Err well
eventually err the twins were brought up into our apartment err and
that again to me was err a very odd thing because they were fast
asleep, they did not wake up.”
4078 ”Were they
brought up, so had they been taken out of their cots and brought up?”
Reply ”Yeah, yeah.
They were being carried, I think Fiona and Dave carried them up.”
4078 ”And they were
still not awake?”
Reply ”Still not
awake, and the cots were, because they were travel cots they brought
up, you know and err put in the living room and they were put into
the cots and they just carried on sleeping.”
4078 ”In your
experience, obviously you’ve had children yourself and you’ve got
plenty of grandchildren, and am I to understand that Sean and Amelie
stayed in your apartment for longer than that night?”
Reply ”Err I can’t
remember if they, no I think they just, just the one night, or two
nights.”
4078 ”But with all
your experience of small children, you thought that was odd that they
had not woken?”
Reply ”Oh yeah
definitely. Well even err the noise that was going on in the
apartment and they slept through it all.”
4078 ”Mm.”
Reply ”They were
taken from their cots when they were brought up to our apartment and
they would have to come out into the cold and I would have err I
would have expected some sort of awakening.”
4078 ”Yeah. So after
the twins had been brought up did Fiona and Dave stay in the
apartment with you?”
Reply ”Yeah well at
that point Kate and Gerry came up as well and err because the Police
had decided to close off the apartment, bit late in the day but you
know, they came up and what we did we got the, there was mattresses
on the spare beds in the room where Lily was sleeping so we got them
and put them on the floor in the lounge beside the twins so that they
could rest, if not sleep, err but by this time it must have been
about half past four, five o’ clock in the morning.”
4078 ”And how were
they by that time?”
Reply ”Err exhausted
and obviously they didn’t sleep, I mean they were out again at the
crack of dawn.”
4078 ”Had anybody
else gone from the apartment to do any searching, from your
apartment?”
Reply ”What, that
night? Or…”
4078 ”Mm.”
Reply ”Well apart
from the initial when, when the men were all err out searching I mean
Dave was obviously one of them. I know there was a lot of err a lot
of conversation going on about the fact that the Police, the
Portuguese Police had not arrived err because I think the, err I
don’t know if it was Russell and Dave that went down, only I think
to reception and err I think they were also trying to get photographs
of Madeleine printed and err I’m not sure if it was because of the,
the delay in the Police arriving that they, I’m not sure who
informed err Sky News of the event, you know a lot of that err I know
Kate and Gerry spent a lot of time on the phone ringing people, they
were just so, so beside themselves really.”
DW ne sait plus qui a fait quoi, il y a une histoire de photo et de police qui n'arrive pas, quelqu'un a informé Sky News, mais qui ? Mais elle sait (on le lui a dit) que les MC n'ont pas arrêté d'appeler des gens au téléphone.
4078 ”Once they
arrived at your apartment did they stay there a while or do you
remember them leaving?”
Reply ”What, that
night?”
4078 ”Mm.”
Reply ”Err I think,
I think, I think they stayed there because it was very late or you
know early, early morning and Kate wanted a priest, they couldn’t
find a priest which, well I won’t, I won’t say what her language
was but I’m, you know, Portugal’s a Catholic country and err no
priest.”
4078 ”Mm. So the
events in your mind of that night are you don’t have a concept of
time checking because you were just sitting and waiting and wondering
and feeling helpless.”
Reply ”Yeah, and I
do know it was, it was very, you know, it was something like half
past four or five o’ clock in the morning before we got to bed.”
4078 ”Is there
anything that we haven’t already covered about the Thursday, and
particularly the Thursday evening, that you think it’s important to
mention?”
Reply ”Well I, I you
know, my memory would have to be jogged I think for anything specific
because I can’t, you know, eleven months down the line.”
4078 ”Yeah I know,
yeah. I mean we have got your statement translated from Portuguese to
English if, you’re welcome to, to hear parts of that, I can read
parts out to you or let you have a look at it if it would help? It’s
entirely up to you whether you want to do that.”
Reply ”Well, a lot
of that I don’t, yeah I don’t remember but I think at the time I
was interviewed err there was a lot of the things I wasn’t sure
about and I made that quite clear.”
4078 ”Okay.”
Reply ”At you know,
I was there on holiday, I don’t sit and watch people or look at my
watch all the time so it’s very difficult.”
4078 ”I think what
we’ll do I think we’ll have a break because we’ve going quite a
long time. It’s an hour and a half we’ve been talking for now.”
Reply ”Yeah.”
4078 ”It’s nearly
twelve o’ clock, so we’ll have a break. I’m aware that lunch
normally arrives around half past twelve, it’s up to you whether
you want to hang on and wait until after you’ve eaten before we
carry on or whether you’d rather get on with this and have a later
lunch, it doesn’t matter, it’s your choice, but for now we’ll
stop this interview.”
Reply ”Yeah.”
4078 ”It’s eleven
fifty six.”
The interview ceased at
1156 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
PART II
4078 “Here we are,
it’s now thirteen twenty eight and it’s the afternoon of Friday
the eleventh of April two thousand and eight. It’s quite noisy
this, it’s off putting sometimes. I’m DC FERGUSON from the Major
Crime Unit in Leicestershire, and you are?”
Reply “Dianne
WEBSTER.”
4078 “And your home
address, Dianne?”
Reply “Fifty nine
(inaudible) Road, Renhold, Bedford.”
4078 “And we’ve
already been speaking this morning, obviously we’re talking about
the holiday you had last year during which Madeleine MC went
missing and we’ve covered, we’ve done an hour and a half of
talking this morning and you’ve told me as much as you can remember
about the week. So just before we move on to asking the questions
from the Portuguese, there are two things that I wanted to go back
over with you, one thing was about the twins and how deeply they’d
slept that night.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “And you
said you wondered if they’d perhaps been drugged.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “I think it’s
one of the questions that the MCs want us to ask anyway,
but have you ever seen their children being given any medication?”
Reply “Oh no, no.”
4078 “So how would
you imagine that they may have been drugged?”
Reply “Err by the
abductor. I think Madeleine would have been drugged as well.”
4078 “Yeah, and the
night when they were sleeping, did anybody try to wake them? Other
than it being noisy and they were moved.”
Reply “No, no I mean
err when they, when they were brought up to our apartment err they
had a sort of blanket over them and they were asleep on err I think
it was David and Fiona that carried them up and they were just
sleeping on their shoulder and obviously didn’t want to wake them
up because the cots were being brought up and they were put, put, but
you know my, my feeling is that they, I think a child normally would
haven woken up under the circumstances.”
4078 “How were they
when they woke up the following morning?”
Reply “Oh fine,
yeah.”
4078 “No different
to normal?”
Reply “Yeah, lively
twins.”
4078 “Okay, the
other thing was, you mentioned that when you went back into Kate and
Gerry’s apartment immediately after Madeleine had gone missing, and
I know you didn’t specify a time, and you went into the room and I
think you made a comment that Kate had spoken to you about the
shutters being, the window being open.”
Reply “Yeah the
shutters being up and the window open, yeah.”
4078 “Did you see
that window at the time?”
Reply “No I, my
recollection is that err I think the shutter had been let back down
again or err I don’t, I don’t recall the window being open at the
time I went so whether they’d closed it because obviously it was
draughty for the twins but I, I can’t be a hundred percent sure
about that.”
4078 “Okay, but Kate
told you that she’d found the window open and, did she mention the
curtains?”
Reply “Err well at
that point I can’t, I can’t remember, a lot, a lot of what I’m
saying is perhaps some of what was said on the night or seen on the
night and also what was spoken about later, the fact that you
know she, it was the fact the door had, had slammed shut that drew
her attention to something not being right in the room, you know when
she went to check on the children.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “And err and
that, that draught through the window had, had caused the door to
slam.”
4078 “Is that the
bedroom door that you understood it as?”
Reply “The
children’s bedroom door.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Okay, is there
anything that you’ve thought about since we finished speaking
before lunch that you want to mention now?”
Reply “Err not
really I think, I think questions would probably jog my memory better
than me trying to…”
4078 “Yeah, okay.”
Reply “To think
things through, you know, sometimes a question will light a light
somewhere.”
4078 “Yeah, and
that’s why (inaudible) (laughs). I’ve got here the statements
from the Portuguese and I must confess it’s a, I haven’t read
them this week, I skim read them last night, but I thought if I just
go through it and read…”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Read parts of
it.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Just to see if
there’s anything that may jog your memory. I’ll just summarise,
basically you said to them that you were with your family really only
in the afternoon and the evening because you were mainly reading,
going shopping and doing other things. You had breakfast with your
family one day and on the Wednesday, because it was raining, you were
given, sorry you went for breakfast on the Wednesday because it was
raining and there was a delay with the tennis. And this was taken on
the Friday, the day after Madeleine had gone missing, okay, so it
says with respect to yesterday you went to the beach with your
granddaughters, your son in-law and your daughter, which you’ve
recalled already.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “You arrived
there about quarter to four and left at about quarter past six when
you went to the tennis court and you stayed there until about seven.”
Reply “Oh right, so
I did go.”
4078 “Straight after
that you went to the apartment with your granddaughters where you son
in-law David arrived after ten minutes, and in the apartment you gave
the children a bath with the help of your son in-law. You left the
apartment about quarter to nine in the company of your son in-law and
daughter, and met up with the rest of the group in the Tapas. So yeah
it must have been that day…”
Reply “Yeah sorry
I…”
4078 “Can you
recall…”
Reply “You see that
has brought back to mind the fact yes we did bath the children
together but I just, I’d forgotten that.”
4078 “Okay, if as
I’m going through it you, you know it strikes a chord and there’s
other things that you remember just interrupt me.”
Reply “(Nods).”
4078 “Everyone else
was at dinner, you clarify that you didn’t need to go back to check
on your grandchildren because of the monitor.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “And you said
that Gerald and Kate went to, it says went to the club regularly, I
assume they mean went to the apartment regularly. It’s a little bit
disjointed the way it’s been translated.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “To check if
the children were okay, on one of these occasions Kate returned
really shocked and nervous in a state of real panic and then
obviously that’s when Madeleine had gone.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “That’s it
really for the first statement, it just says you didn’t know
Madeleine very well but you describe her as being active, energetic,
calm, good mannered, beautiful and attractive child, and then you
made another statement a week later.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “On the
eleventh of May, which was translated by Robert MURAT.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “Who I must
remember to talk about him in a minute.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “We’ll come
on to that after this. It just sets the scene really and takes you on
your journey, you were staying in apartment five H, it says that you
said that in the mornings you would go to play tennis and afterwards
you would go to the Baptista Supermarket to do shopping for lunch. On
your return various families that comprised the group used to meet up
in the PAYNE’S apartment to have lunch together because it was the
biggest apartment.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “And after
lunch the children used to sleep during the siesta, you’d normally
take care of them whilst David and Fiona took part in leisure
activities. There’s nothing here that really, on that page, that
would jog your memory, it’s just in general. As far as you remember
dinner usually finished around eleven o’ clock, at which time
people would go back to respective apartments, and then they sort of
make a thing about when asked you added that you went to your
favourite restaurant in the company of your son and daughter in-law,
favourite restaurant being the Tapas, and they must have asked you
directly if somebody had come to call on you to get you down to
dinner. I suppose they’ve asked that because of what Matthew had
said about (inaudible)…”
Reply “Yeah well at
that, that was the point you see, at that time I don’t, I didn’t
remember having passed Matt on the way but you know as time’s gone
on and, and err I think Dave, Dave or Fiona mentioned it and that’s,
I did then remember. As I say things like that at the time are
irrelevant to me, they’re not…”
4078 “Yeah, well in
any case he never arrived at your apartment to come and call for you
did he?”
Reply “No, no, no we
passed him on the way down.”
4078 “Then it says
that the whole group had met up in the restaurant, you don’t
remember but you think it possible that perhaps Matt and Gerald were
not together with the other members of the group in the restaurant.
You said earlier on when we spoke that you couldn’t picture Gerry
being there.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “It may have
been a point where he’d gone off to check.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Err…”
Reply “Which would
really tie in the time if you’re allowing half hour intervals, I
mean Kate and Gerry were the first to arrive there so…”
4078 “There really
isn’t anything here down that’s gonna help.”
Reply “No.”
4078 “It’s all,
you know, even at that early stage there wasn’t a lot more that you
were able to say. Did you check the blind at Kate’s apartment on
the window that obviously the relevant window? Did you go out and
check the blind?”
Reply “Oh the
shutter?”
4078 “Yeah, sorry.”
Reply “Yeah I mean I
can remember going out there and in fact there was me and somebody
else, I don’t know who else there was, to see if it could be raised
from, from outside, I didn’t spend too long err trying it.”
4078 “And were you
able to?”
Reply “I think, I
think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted. But
everybody was in such a panic really.”
4078 “They mention
what the lighting in the apartment was like when you went after
Madeleine’s disappearance in Kate and Gerry’s apartment and it
says here that you thought that the lights would have been on because
you don’t remember any darkness. With respect to the bedroom
previously occupied by Madeleine you didn’t remember whether the
lights were on, but you knew that when you’d entered the bedroom
the twins were still asleep…”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “In their
respective beds, which made you think that the lights must have been
on, but because you could see that it couldn’t have been completely
dark so there must have been some light coming into the room.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “They asked you
if anyone had used a car on holiday.”
Reply “No.”
4078 “Nothing more
really that’s gonna help.”
Reply “No.”
4078 “Okay, we’ll
move on then to the questions that the Portuguese would like us to
ask you.”
Reply “Right.”
4078 “I might need
your phone in a little while.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “Now I’ll go
through them all even though you’ve already answered some of them
but with the ones that you’ve already answered I’ll say we don’t
need to cover that because we’ve covered it. So what time did you
arrive at the Tapas bar in the evening? You’ve already said it was
about five to nine I think.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “And you
arrived with Fiona and David.”
Reply “Fiona and
Dave yeah.”
4078 “And you’ve
already said that you think everybody else was present other than
Matt who you’d just seen.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “Going to check
his children, and you can’t picture whether Gerry was there or
not.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “Were you aware
of any arrangements that were in place for the children to be
checked? Well that really wasn’t a concern of yours because you
didn’t have direct responsibility for any of the children.”
Reply “That’s
right yes.”
4078 “And did you
leave the table at all during that dinner on the third of May?”
Reply “Err only to
go to the toilet I think, probably.”
4078 “And then it
says, where did you go and what time did you go? Well that’s not
really relevant. (Laughs).”
Reply “(Laughs).”
4078 “How long were
you away from the table and why?”
Reply “That’s a
very personal question (laughs).”
4078 “And how many
times did you leave the table? Right, did you leave the table, did
you leave the tale with Russell O’BRIEN at all? Oh I know why that
says, because these questions relate to everybody and obviously Matt
went with Russell on one occasion so they specifically asked Matt.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “You didn’t
check on anyone else’s children.”
Reply “No.”
4078 “And it wasn’t
planned for you to check on anyone else’s children.”
Reply “No.”
4078 “Therefore you
didn’t have any cause to pass by Madeleine’s bedroom window and
you didn’t therefore notice the shutters. During your stay in your
apartment where you, Fiona and Dave were, did you ever leave the
doors or windows open?”
Reply “Err no but
err after Madeleine disappeared I, I checked the err some of the
windows in our apartment and they weren’t locked, we hadn’t, we
hadn’t thought of checking them you know, when we arrived in the
resort to check the windows and the cleaners must have left them
unlocked.”
4078 “So it would
have been possible to, were they slide…”
Reply “They were
sliding.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “But I mean
they were quite err, the aperture to get through was quite narrow,
you know, if you imagine a, a window cut in half, one half slides,
you’re left with the small err quite a small opening so I don’t
think a large person would get through.”
4078 “Would that
have been the same for the apartment where Madeleine was sleeping as
well?”
Reply “Mm. They
weren’t large windows.”
4078 “Because when
you’ve not been there and seen these things you don’t think, I’d
never thought about the size of the window before.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “I assumed it
was quite a large window that someone would be easy, it would be easy
for somebody to get in and out but that, that’s not the case.”
Reply “Well I don’t
think so, I mean err a fat person wouldn’t get through put it that
way.”
4078 “Right. Have
you got your phone handy? Or, there’s three or four numbers here
that, if you’re anything like me they won’t mean anything to you
without your phone.”
Reply “I’ll just
switch it on.”
4078 “I’ll read
one out to you that I think you probably will know what it is. It’s
o, one, two, three, four, seven, seven, two, three, one, five.”
Reply “Yeah that’s
my home number.”
4078 “That’s your
home number. Presumably you’ve been calling your husband?”
Reply “I call my
husband err the night err the night it happened, must have been early
hours of the morning.”
4078 “Twenty five to
one.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Yeah. There’s
another number here, again, I don’t know if this will mean anything
to you because I’m not sure it’s a telephone number, I think it
might be a network type number for browsing, the internet browser or
something. Its o, seven, nine, seven, three, one, zero, zero, six,
one, zero.”
Reply “Doesn’t
ring any bells. That sounds like a mobile number doesn’t it.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “Err…”
4078 “I don’t
think that you will have that in your phone because on the
information we have it’s a web browsing number or a platform number
or something, which I don’t fully understand, but I think its to do
with you being abroad.”
Reply “I don’t do
any web browsing on my phone, so.”
4078 “It may be that
you’ve received, well in fact this, you’ve received a text
message from this number.”
Reply “Oh I
wondered…”
4078 “On May the
third at half past seven in the evening.”
Reply “Half past
seven in the evening?”
4078 “What it could
be, what I’m guessing it could be, is perhaps a text message from
your network provider, with you being abroad, maybe they’d sent you
a text or something. Well anyway, suffice it to say don’t worry too
much about that number because I’m sure that, I don’t think
you’ll be able to…”
Reply “You see I did
get a text from err my daughter in New Zealand, it’s not the same
number. The number I’ve got here is err o, six, four, two, one,
six, four, o, eight, eight, five.”
4078 “I haven’t
got that number here. The other number then, well, there are two more
numbers, I just wanted to see if you have them in your phone. Its
plus four, four, or zero, depending on where its dialled from, seven,
seven, four, zero, three, zero, four, one, one, five.”
Reply “You see I
don’t recall people’s mobile numbers so its (laughs).”
4078 “No. I don’t
either. It ends in one, one, five that one.”
Reply “Yeah it ends
in one, one, five.”
4078 “And they rang
you at quarter past eleven in the morning on the fourth of May, so
the morning after Madeleine had gone.”
Reply “Ah so that
might have been Louise, my other daughter.”
4078 “It quite
possibly was because that would match with what we have.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “You’ve got
two Doctor daughters have you?”
Reply “Yeah, well
the one in New Zealand’s a Doctor as well but she’s a PHD Doctor,
she’s a scientist. Yeah that’s, err Louisa NATES, yeah my middle
daughter.”
4078 “Okay, and do
you remember why she called?”
Reply “Err because
her dad, well I would have phoned Tim to tell him what had happened
and he I think probably would have got in touch with Louise.”
4078 “There actually
are quite a high number of calls to and from that number that day.
I’m sure they would all, all to have been to do with Madeleine’s
disappearance.”
Reply “Yes, yeah
definitely.”
4078 “And the last
number then Dianne is o, seven, eight, nine, nine, eight, one, eight,
seven, one, three.”
Reply “One, three.
Who else would I have called?”
4078 “Do you know a
Dave MIDDLETON?”
Reply “Dave
MIDDLETON? (Shakes head).”
4078 “No?”
Reply “No.”
4078 “Do you know
anybody in Doncaster?”
Reply “Err no, but
Louise, my middle daughter, she’s married to err Simon ALDRIDGE
who, his company err Doncaster, I’m sure it’s around Doncaster
where his business is.”
4078 “What’s his
line of work?”
Reply “They’re err
it’s a roof tiler.”
4078 “That’s the
one yeah.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Yeah. Sandtoft
Roof Tiles.”
Reply “Sandtoft yeah
that’s it.”
4078 “The person
that’s bought the phone or registered the phone must be called Dave
MIDDLETON. Okay, so that’s your son in-law then?”
Reply “Yeah. Well
not the Dave MIDDLETON, he’s not.”
4078 “No.”
Reply “No. My son
in-law’s…”
4078 “Simon
ALDRIDGE.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “That’s it
for the phone numbers.”
Reply “That’s it
for the phone numbers.”
4078 “Yeah, which
leaves us only with questions that Kate and Gerry want us to ask
everybody.”
Reply “Right okay,
I’ll switch this off now shall I?”
4078 “Okay, thanks.”
Reply “Did you want
my mobile number by the way? I’ve got it written down there.”
4078 “Oh yes please,
yeah.”
Reply “That’s the
only way I can (laughs).”
4078 “So it’s o,
I’m just reading it out for, its my part in the film (laughs) o,
seven, seven, nine, o, three, two, seven, eight, five, three.”
Reply “Okay.”
4078 “Thank you.
Right so these, bare in mind these are Kate and Gerry’s questions
so some of them seem a little awkward, now it’ me trying to put a
different slant on things.”
Reply “Okay.”
4078 “It’s
obviously what they want asking.”
Reply “Yeah, yeah,
yeah.”
4078 “For how long
have you known Kate and Gerry MC ?”
Reply “Err I first
met them at Fiona’s wedding which was in September two thousand and
three.”
4078 “And what kind
of relationship is there between you and the MC couple?”
Reply “Err well I
mean I only know them because they’re friends of err Fiona and
Dave’s, but err I’ve always got on very well with them, very nice
couple and, you know, I couldn’t say anything bad about them at
all.”
4078 “Have you ever
visited them at their home address with their children being
present?”
Reply “Err no I’ve
never visited them at, at home. The only time I’ve been near their
house is when we were going on holiday when we, we left…”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “There, from
their house.”
4078 “And the next
question is, have you already spent holidays with them? Well I know
the answer to that, you haven’t.”
Reply “No, no.”
4078 “How often
would you meet Kate and Gerry during the holiday time period between
the twenty eighth of April and the third of May?”
Reply “How many
times?”
4078 “Mm, how often,
generally. I mean you said it was Kate in the mornings at tennis.”
Reply “Well yes I
mean err and then we’d all see each other in the evening but then
we’d also see each other at certain times during, during the course
of the day depending on err what everybody was doing.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “On that day.”
4078 “And how often
would you see their children, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie?”
Reply “Well again
err on a daily basis but a lot of the time when I saw them, because
they were at kids club during err during the day, not as, I think
morning and afternoon I’m not sure, err most of the time when I saw
them was err when they were having high tea and err then afterwards
in the playing area, and sometimes round the swimming pool err so
yeah I would say I’d see, I’d see them err on a fairly regular
basis, yeah.”
4078 “And have you
ever felt that you had a reason to become somehow concerned about the
children?”
Reply “No, never.”
4078 “When was the
last time you saw Madeleine?”
Reply “(Sighs) You
see I don’t remember seeing her on the Thursday because I didn’t
go to the high tea, err but I was apparently in the play area
afterwards but I can’t recall that.”
4078 “Okay.”
Reply “Err so from
what I can recall, the last time I would have seen Madeleine would
have been the Wednesday at the high tea probably.”
4078 “And we’ve
kind of already covered this one, when did you see Kate and Gerald on
the Thursday, May the third? You’d seen Kate in the morning at
tennis I think.”
Reply “Yeah I saw
Kate in the morning at the tennis and err…”
4078 “And then you
said, I know I’ve told you now that it was likely to have been that
day when you saw the men playing tennis.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “You can’t
recall exactly?”
Reply “I can’t
no.”
4078 “And obviously
at the evening meal you saw Kate and Gerry.”
Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “Again, what
time did you arrive at the Tapas restaurant? Well you’ve already
covered that. And who was already there? You’ve already covered
that. What were Kate and Gerry doing by the time you arrived?”
Reply “Well my
recollection is that, that err I thought, I thought Gerry wasn’t at
the table but I can’t be a hundred percent sure. Err but I would
have said that, you know, they were just sitting at the table waiting
for everybody to arrive so we could order our, start ordering our
food.”
4078 “And did you
speak to them?”
Reply “I would think
so, I spoke to everybody but, you know, I don’t…”
4078 “You can’t
recall the specifics?”
Reply “No.”
4078 “What was their
behaviour like?”
Reply “Just normal,
you know, having a good holiday.”
4078 “And again
we’ve already covered this, who left the table during the meal and
why? Well you say there was Matthew, Russell and Jane comings and
goings, and you don’t recall Gerry being there sometimes, so.”
Reply “Well I know
that, I know that err every night, I mean the children were being
checked on very regularly but I obviously wasn’t paying attention
as to who was going where, when, and I wasn’t even particularly
aware that sometimes they would check on each other’s children,
i.e. if they were going to check their own they would listen to other
people, the doors of other people, but I, I was totally unaware of
that.”
4078 “I think…”
Reply “There’s no
reason why I would know that.”
4078 “Yeah. I think
from what I’ve learnt this week it’s actually the Thursday night
was the first night that had actually…”
Reply “That that had
happened.”
4078 “Yeah. I’m
not wishing to labour this point but did you see Gerry leaving the
table during the meal? At what time? How long was he absent? You
can’t really (inaudible)…”
Reply “I can’t.”
4078 “No.”
Reply “You know,
it’s…”
4078 “Can you say
was he behaving or acting differently when he returned?”
Reply “No.”
4078 “Did you see
Matthew leaving the table during the meal? I’ll gloss over these
because I know you can’t specifically remember but I’ll ask them
in case you want to say anything. At what time? For how long? What
did Matthew say when he returned? Was he behaving or acting
differently when he returned? And the same questions for Russell and
then for Kate. Did you see them leaving the table? What time? How
long? What did they say when they came back? Were they behaving or
acting differently? Obviously with Kate’s quite clearly she was
behaving and acting differently when she came back from her check.”
Reply “Oh when she
came back and Madeleine had been taken, yeah she, at that point she’d
disappeared.”
4078 “Do you know
what sort of time that was?”
Reply “Well no,
again, you see I didn’t, I didn’t look at my watch, I’m only
going on err I mean Dave would have been more aware of the time than
I was.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “But we’d
finished, we’d had our starters and we’d err we’d finished our
main course err Russell was the only one that hadn’t had his main
course because he, he’d been absolute looking after his daughter
while Jane had her dinner and err Russell sat down to start eating
his and it was only shortly after that that Kate came running up.”
4078 “And I know I
asked you before but what did she look like when she came back in?”
Reply “Well she
didn’t even come right in, I don’t think she came right in to the
restaurant she was just err so distressed that everybody just got up
from the table and, and went, apart from myself, well I stayed behind
in case err Fiona said you know stay there in case she’s wandered
off.”
4078 “Then it says,
what was Kate’s behaviour like? But you’ve said she was
distraught. And were you shocked by what she said?”
Reply “Well yes, I
mean sometimes I still can’t believe what happened.”
4078 “I get that
sense from you that you’re still really…”
Reply “It’s like
something you read about you know, err you never suspect a child
being abducted from its bed.”
4078 “Then the next
question is what we’ve recently talked about, did you get into the MC’s apartment? Yes you did, and you’re not a hundred percent
certain of the time.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “Did you get
into the bedroom when the children were asleep? And again, yes you
did.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Can you
describe what you saw in that bedroom?”
Reply “Well the two,
the twins were both sleeping in their cots, which were sort of in the
middle of the floor kind of like they were side by side, err I think
there was a bed underneath the err window and Madeleine’s bed was
(sighs) to the left as you went through the door against the wall.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “And err the
covers were just neatly folded back like, and she’d been, just
been lifted. The bed was not err disturbed or crumpled in any way.”
4078 “When you saw
the twins did you see which way they were lying?”
Reply “No.”
4078 “Did you notice
anything unusual about them?”
Reply “Err no, not
at the time but I, in, in retrospect you see I’m, when I think
of all the noise that was going on in the apartment and the way they
were when they, err were brought up to us I would say they were a bit
dopey.”
4078 “Yeah. And then
it says what did you do next? Well you went back to your apartment to
look after your granddaughters and at some point you had a little
look around but couldn’t remember whether that was…”
Reply “That would
have been before I went back to the apartment. I can, I can, I can
only assume that I went back to the apartment to let Fiona, to
release Fiona so she could come and be there for Kate.”
4078 “And then you
went back to the Tapas bar to collect the belongings that had been
left.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “It says did
you take part in subsequent searches? Well you didn’t have the
opportunity to really…”
Reply “No.”
4078 “Because you
were confined to your apartment. And on realising Madeleine had not
been found in the first ten minutes how did Kate react? Well you’ve
already covered that before, she was distraught.”
Reply “Absolutely.”
4078 “As was Gerry,
which was the next question. And what did you think about their
behaviour considering that Madeleine had gone missing?”
Reply “Well their
behaviour was of distraught parents, err you know you can’t put
words into how they were.”
4078 “Mm. What did
you do between ten thirty in the evening and ten in the morning of
the following day?”
Reply “Well for many
of those hours after I left err after I’d left the apartment of
Kate and Gerry and gone back to our apartment I sat on the veranda
for a, well it was hours really.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “And err
eventually when err Dave and Fiona came back and I can’t remember
if they came back carrying the twins or whether they came back first
and said the twins are coming up here I can’t remember, err but the
twins appeared err in our apartment, they were put down to sleep.
That was when the Police had cordoned off the apartment and err Kate
and Gerry came up.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “And then a
lot of the time was spent with them, frantic really, on the phone to,
to family you know absolutely distraught.”
4078 “Apart from
David and Fiona and Gerry and Kate and the twins and your girls, who
else did you see during that time? Sort of ten thirty in the evening
to ten o’ clock the following morning.”
Reply “Well I think
there was err some of the staff from the Ocean Club, the err I seem
to remember err one or two of them being in the apartment initially,
I think that was when they were err putting up the cots and stuff
like that. Err I know when I got up in the morning err which I think
might have been about seven o’ clock I don’t know, I’m not
sure, Kate and Gerry had already left the apartment, they were out
looking again as far as I know. Err we obviously had the twins for
that day, we didn’t have them two nights, I just checked that.”
4078 “Right. So up
until ten the following morning then you were pretty much in the
apartment then?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “Did any of the
other members of the group, Rachael, Matt, Jane, Russell, did they
come to your apartment at all that night?”
Reply “Again I can’t
remember.”
4078 “Okay, and then
it goes on to say, who did you talk to? Well that’s…”
Reply “Well that
whole scenario it is, it’s just a blur because something’s
happened that your brain just doesn’t, doesn’t accept.”
4078 “When did you
finally leave Portugal?”
Reply “Err
seventeenth of May.”
4078 “And how many
times did you meet with Kate and Gerry between Madeleine’s
disappearance and when you left?”
Reply “Err we saw,
saw them quite often. Err I know that during the day we didn’t see
much of them because they were busy obviously with err the Police and
err counsellors and we all had some counselling, err but yeah we, we
tended to, to see them at least everyday I would think, and I know
that Fiona and Dave, it might be late at night that they would, I
would stay in the apartment and they would go and see Kate and Gerry,
because I think night times were really bad.”
4078 “Do you think
you were showing normal behaviour for parents who had lost a child?”
Reply “Well I’m
not sure what normal behaviour for losing your child is, but if it’s
suggested that they were putting on some sort of act that is totally
ludicrous. There was err absolutely no, nothing in my mind that would
suggest anything untoward.”
4078 “And during the
time that you were on the holiday did you notice any situation where
Kate and DAVICGerry were talking to any unknown person?”
Reply “Well I think
the only people that, that I err had seen, well Gerry in particular,
talk to were err people that he’d met during the tennis, you know,
that were also staying at the resort. Err that’s as far as I know.”
4078 “There was
nobody who didn’t seem familiar to you that you saw them with?”
Reply “Well no, I
mean there were obviously people he’d met because err he went to
different tennis lessons to, to the ones I went to so I think he met
one or two people through the tennis that he’d perhaps bump into,
you know.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “On the
rounds.”
4078 “And this
question’s a little bit, a bit of an awkward lengthy question, so
err I’ll read it as it’s written because it’s obviously how
Gerry and Kate have formed it. Is there any supplementary explanation
that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material
truth? Basically is there anything else that you can think of that
needs to be mentioned?”
Reply “What, in
relation to err…”
4078 “It just says
is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or
relevant to establish the material truth? So is there anything that
you know that you haven’t previously said that, or that you have
possibly said before but you don’t think anyone’s picked up on
that we need to be aware of and certainly that might make a
difference in our search for Madeleine?”
Reply “What in
relation to what I think might have happened to her? Or…”
4078 “Mm, yeah.”
Reply “Err I mean I,
my feeling is the person that err Jane saw err that it was Madeleine
that he was err carrying. I also have a feeling that, that because of
the, the time between Gerry having checked on, on the children and
her being taken, err and I think I mentioned it to Gerry, you know,
at the time, well not at the time but days later, that the abductor
may well have already been in the apartment when he went to check on
Madeleine.”
4078 “That could
have made sense couldn’t it when you look at the time, time scale
of things.”
Reply “Yeah, I mean
because it happened so, there’s such a short err time and I also
think that the children would have been sleeping soundly when Gerry
saw them because maybe by that time they had been err drugged with, I
don’t know, I mean I wouldn’t know whether there’s anything,
chloroform had been put over them.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “Because I
also think that, that err from Jane’s description, the way
Madeleine was being carried, despite what the papers say well she was
not covered in a blanket, it was a very cold night and I think the
cold would have woken her up.”
4078 “Mm, and Jane
describes her feet as being very relaxed.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “And just
flopping (inaudible).”
Reply “And limp,
yeah. And I think if you’re carrying a child err, although she was
a small child, it’s still you know a three year, nearly four year
old child, I don’t think they could have carried them very far like
that so I would suspect there was a vehicle err or a house she was
being transferred to.”
4078 “Are you
familiar with the area where Jane says she saw the person walking to,
(inaudible), not walking to.”
Reply “Well yeah I
could see that it was along the top of the road.”
4078 “And having not
been there, again, what is there there? Are there houses or is it
baron? Or…”
Reply “No, no I
think there are houses err I mean that, that was the road I think we
had to take to err go to the Millennium restaurant but as I didn’t
go there very often I wasn’t familiar with that…”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “That route.
Most of the time if I went anywhere it was down at the Supermarket or
down to the beach, which was the other way.”
4078 “Right, so if
there had have been a vehicle parked there, you wouldn’t
particularly noticed anything different…”
Reply “No.”
4078 “That night?”
Reply “No.
4078 “The, was there
anything else you wanted to say?”
Reply “Well other
than the fact that she was definitely targeted and I think we made it
easy for them by doing the same thing everyday, every night.”
4078 “Mm. And
finally I want to come on to talking about the re-enactment that
you’ve been asked to attend in Portugal, and I want you to tell me
what your feelings and thoughts on that are.”
Reply “(Sighs) Well
to be honest I don’t understand why they want to do this sort of
nearly twelve months down the line err is it something that’s going
to be televised sort of worldwide? Or is it purely going to be for
the Police? Because if so err because it’s a holiday area you won’t
have the same people around that were around err when it happened and
lots of the apartments are holiday apartments and a lot of them are
closed up, were still closed when we were there anyway. It was very
quiet err so I don’t really know what their hoping to achieve by
it.”
4078 “Under what
circumstances would you be happy to go back to do the re-enactment?
Well, not happy to, but prepared to go back?”
Reply “Well I mean I
would do anything if I thought it was going to find Madeleine, I
really would.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “But I have to
question err the sense in doing that now.”
4078 “I know, when
we spoke on the journey here and the boss spoke to you briefly at the
beginning of the day and he explained to you that this is your
opportunity to say anything that you’ve been wanting to say, so I’d
just like to give you the opportunity to have your say if you like.”
Reply “What about
how it’s been conducted, the err…”
4078 “If there’s
anything you feel strongly that you’d like to convey yes.”
Reply “Well I just
felt err I just feel very disappointed with the, err Portuguese
Police in the way that they conducted the initial err investigation.
Err I think it took something like a week before we were
fingerprinted and a similar time before they sent the sniffer dogs
into the apartments that we were in, err I know the dogs had been
there a while but I don’t, I’m not quite sure what they were
doing at that point. Err I, I just feel that they, they, I think they
say the first hour or something is the, is it the first hour in an
abduction I think…”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “Is the
important time, or the first twenty four hours I’m not sure, but I
also realise that err by the time we discovered Madeleine missing it,
if it was when Jane saw her being abducted, which was err about I
think quarter past nine or something, that err she may well already
have been well on her way to being out of the country.”
4078 “Mm. Is there
anything else you wanted to say?”
Reply “Err…”
4078 “You indicated
that you’d been frustrated at the lack of information that you’d
had back from the Portuguese, the lack of…”
Reply “Well yes I
mean err…”
4078 “Contact.”
Reply “There have
been stories in the press for, for several months now about them
coming supposedly to re-interview us all and nothing ever happened
and then you know suddenly it is happening but we weren’t really
given any formal notice from them.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “And likewise
with the re-enactment, err it’s only what we’ve been told about,
nothing official’s been err put to us at all. I don’t know really
whether, whether a re-enactment would, unless it’s being
televised.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “Would have
any, whether it’ll have any effect on it at all. And I think it
would also be quite distressing for Kate and Gerry to go through
that.”
4078 “Yeah. I’m
just going to pop next door and ask if the people monitoring this
have thought of anything that we’ve forgotten to cover.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “In the
meantime carrying on thinking to see if there’s anything else you
want to, to say.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “And I’ll
leave this recording though.”
Reply “Okay.”
DC FERGUSON exits the
interview room.
DC FERGUSON re-enters the
interview room.
4078 “Is there
anything else that you’ve thought of that you wanted to say?”
Reply “Not really,
as I say I’m just disappointed that the investigation failed at the
beginning.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “You know,
common sense to somebody like myself who knows nothing about how
Police work or anything, common sense would tell me that you know
they should’ve closed the borders, closed the apartment
immediately, and in fact one of the women that did the initial
fingerprinting on the shutter outside, and there was pictures of her
in the paper, I mean she wasn’t even dressed appropriately, she had
on jeans and a bomber jacket. So it was contamination probably from
the Police themselves in the apartment.”
4078 “You also, when
we spoke earlier, expressed a sense of frustration about the fact
that you’d all been banned by the Super (inaudible).”
Reply “That’s
right, yes.”
4078 “And you’d
been very restrained in what you said.”
Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “And yet you
felt that you’ve been very badly let down because of what’s come
out.”
Reply “Well that’s
right I mean the only err the mere fact at, looking at the press err
for, for quite, what seemed quite a while, they didn’t know who I
was, I was never mentioned by name, I was just mentioned as an older,
an older person err and then when my name did appear in the, in the
British press I knew that err the leak had come from the Portuguese
Police because my name was spelt correctly. Most people spelling
Dianne would put one N in it and err mine’s got two N’s in it and
it was spelt correctly.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “Err and I
think err when we were on holiday err not the Portuguese holiday but
when my husband and I were on holiday, we’ve got a boat and we got
sailing every year and err when I was on holiday I had a, a text
message from one of my work colleagues because err somebody had
called my work place asking, somebody from Portugal, err called my
work place asking to speak to me and my colleague, or this, this
woman wanted my err mobile number and err my colleague wouldn’t
give it to her and err my colleague obviously advised me of this,
gave me the woman’s name and where to contact her but I think it
was the press. She didn’t say she was the press but I think she’d
been trying to contact other members of the group as well and err
again she knew where my work place was, this had only, could only
have come from the Police because nobody else would know, so I found
that quite shocking and I’ve never spoken to the press at all, not
here. They’ve been to my door and knocked, not in the same way that
they’ve err sort of visited the others but err because I live out
in a village.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “They’ve
come to the door and I have not err well they’ve come quite often
when I’m not there, they’ve spoken to my husband once and err I
had a chap come one night, err nine o’ clock at night and I just
sort of opened the door to him, I was in the house by myself anyway,
and I just said no. So I have never ever spoken to the press about
anything.”
4078 “I know you
feel like you’ve been let down because there’s been so much in
the press.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “From the
others…”
Reply “Well I, I
feel, and its not from myself because there’s very little about me
but err you know, I feel the way that the other members have been err
sort of slagged off really by the press, it’s just totally
unacceptable, and the, you know, some of it they have definitely been
fed this information from Portugal.”
4078 “There was one
point on the questions that I overlooked and I’ll just ask you now
for the sake of being complete. Did you see Jane leaving the table
during the meal?”
Reply “Well only,
only I think, only this much that when she had to eat her meal and go
err when Evie had been sick she had to go and relieve err Russell so
he could come and eat his meal, but prior to that because err when,
when Jane saw this err man carrying a child of course we didn’t
know about Madeleine missing at the time.”
4078 “No.”
Reply “So it, it
wasn’t, wasn’t relevant.”
4078 “Do you have a
recollection of Jane leaving to do that check on the occasion when
she saw the man?”
Reply “Well again
not really because I’m not paying attention because there’s lots
of to’ing and fro’ing between them all, all night.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “I’m not
really err paying attention.”
4078 “So the only
specific recollection you have is when Jane left so that Russell
could come and eat his food?”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “After Evie had
been poorly, do you know any, have you any idea what time that was?
Presumably it’s, you say that you assume Russell got back to the
table (inaudible).”
Reply “Well I mean
Russell, by the time Russell had got back to the table err he’d err
they’d err they’d cooked another steak for him, it didn’t take
very long and he literally I suppose just had about two bites of it
when err Kate came running, so that must have been about, I don’t
know, getting on for ten o’ clock I would imagine because, well
just working out the time that we had our starters and our main
course and we were all finished our main course, it was only Russell
err that had his to eat. We would have been waiting normally for him
to finish that and order desert.”
4078 “That’s it I
think, I’ll, obviously I’ll have to come and apologise if we have
to do another interview but I can’t think of anything else that we
need to cover. What happens next is I need to go and prepare a quick
statement, I don’t know if the others have explained to you but
because we’ve done it on DVD, ordinarily we would transfer that
into a statement and write out a statement and get you to sign the
statement, because they’re going to be fully transcribed…”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “I’ll prepare
a statement that basically says that you’ve been interviewed at
these times by me.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “And that what
you said during the interview was as true and as accurate as it could
be, and then I’ll just get you to read through that and sign it. So
that will complete the process.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “I’m sure the
boss will want to have a chat with you again.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “And so…”
Reply “Well if
anything else does come to mind I mean I sure will let you know.”
4078 “Yeah, and also
you know, I’ll be taking you back anyway later but I’ll make sure
that you’ve got my current contact details.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “You can get in
touch if you have any problems as well with the press…”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Or anything
like that.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “That’s it
then, I shall stop this interview, it’s now twenty nine minutes
past two.”
The interview ceased at
1429 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.