Traduction de Textusa
José Alberto Carvalho: I
now have in the “Jornal das 8”, the former inspector of the PJ,
Gonçalo Amaral, the man who led the initial investigation into the
disappearance of Madeleine McCann. He has not yet commented on the
line of investigation launched in recent weeks by the German police.
Very good evening, Gonçalo Amaral...
Gonçalo Amaral: Good
evening.
JAC: …thank you for
being here, there are…
GA: I thank you for the
opportunity to come here.
JAC: There is… let me
to start before, before anything else to try and understand this:
more than… about a year ago, just over a year ago, in… an itself
unusual interview with an Australian podcast of a television station,
Gonçalo Amaral, hmm, predicted, anticipated that soon it would
likely be presented, or incriminated a German paedophile serving a
sentence in Germany, who was in prison and who pointed as the main
suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Hmmm, saying,
adding that this, in your opinion, he was a scapegoat. My first
question is: when you said this a year ago, were you referring to
Christian Brueckner, this suspect that we now all know has this name?
GA: When I said this a
year ago, I was referring to what was going to happen now. It doesn't
matter who the paedophile is ... what we've been watching over the
years is that paedophiles are appearing. It is necessary to have a
character who, from his profile, the proximity that fits him to take
the blame, so to speak, and in fact this was going to happen, not
least because of the movement that happened in that area, a vehicle
that had already been German, the Germans involved, so this time he
was going to be a German suspect.
JAC: So you didn't know
exactly that it was Christian Brueckner?
GA: Ah, those are
questions (laughs) that no, it is not worth it if it is A, B or C so,
if this one doesn't work, another one will appear ...
JAC: This one has several characteristics due to what we have been hearing for the past few weeks and that I would like to hear you…
GA: Yes, they are
characteristics that this one is almost ... is almost a perfect
suspect ...
JAC: Hmmm, hmmm
GA: He only needs one
thing to be perfect, right? It's being dead. And I can explain this
to you later, but this has been happening over the years. It gets a
little tiresome because the theory of abduction is the one with the
least, shall we say, the least existing evidence, that will exist,
there is one clue on that someone saw the child in the arms of a man
who was coming down from… a certain street, who are an Irish family
who is most credible testimony of… that the girl was… on that
night she was in his arms…
JAC: Transported...
GA: Transported...
JAC: Because there is
a...
GA:… around 10 pm and
what these people say is what the whole world knows, that who… was
later, who could… came to that conclusion that the person who was
transporting that child was the person who was coming down from, from
a certain plane, on a certain date with a son in his arms in England,
who was the father of the girl… Madeleine. So, they didn't say he
was similar, they said 80 or almost 90% ? 60/80% it was Maddie's father. By
the way of walking, by the structure, and so on ...
JAC: Your, your conviction regarding this case, of course, I think, I can call it that ...
GA: They are not convictions... note, they are not convictions, that would mean 2 or 3 ...
JAC: Is it a
certainty?
GA: No, they are not
certainties. I just wanted to say 2 or 3 things ...
JAC: Just to position our viewers: Gonçalo Amaral published the book in which he explains that…
GA: Exactly.
JAC:… called “The
truth of the lie”, that was also the subject of an intense legal
dispute with the McCann family, in which…
GA: Always accompanied by
visits from the Scotland Yard to make diligences in Portugal, because
the process was ongoing. So every time there was a trial hearing,
they were here ... to do diligences in Portugal.
JAC: But just to focus some spectators, especially the younger ones eventually, because it has been a long time, 13 years have passed since Maddie's disappearance, hum, Gonçalo Amaral was the chief, chief inspector of the delegation… of the directorate of Portimão...
GA: Coordinator of the investigation ...
JAC:… and
coordinator of this investigation, the book you published defends the
theory that, he defends the theory that the child vict…
GA: The book I published
does not support a theory. That is a mistake that has been going
around, not being a theory. The book that I published, I published
for the reasons that I have explained over the years ...
JAC: I know.
GA: …so there is no
need to repeat them…
JAC: But why don't you call it a theory? It's that it’s not proven...
GA: Sorry, it’s not a
theory, it’s… it’s a task, it’s the report, it’s… call it
what you want, or report or a state of play on work done during the
first few months of the investigation, where we came to certain
conclusions. Conclusions that at that stage are always provisional.
The terminal investigation does not end… when we go in a certain
direction in terms of the investigation
JAC: In fact, this
investigation...
GA: The investigation
needs…
JAC: …the
investigation is not over, nor has it been completed!
GA: And there is no way
that they will almost end it when they are not… are not taken
certain diligences…
JAC: What I just wanted to…
JAC: What I just wanted to…
GA: ... namely, while all
those parents who were there, that they all abandoned their children
...
JAC: From the McCann
group...
GA: Everyone, all of them
for a week they abandoned ...
JAC: There were 8
families if I wasn’t deceived...
GA: 6… well… 6
adults, so 3 or 4 per family… 1, 2, 3… 6 in Tapas, another one…
JAC: 7. 9 adults !
GA: 7, so what I'm
telling you is that they all left their children alone, the oldest
was Madeleine McCann. And they all left their children to
abandonment, and not in safety as they say. Because, you know, if
they were in safety Madeleine wouldn’t have disappeared… And
contrary to what is claimed and that was…
GA tient mordicus à sa théorie, quoiqu'il réfute cette désignation. Il ne veut pas voir qu'ainsi Eddie s'est trompé en sentant l'odeur de cadavre là où Keela n'a pas trouvé de sang.
JAC: But Gonçalo Amaral let me just...
GA: Let me just finish,
finish…
JAC: Let me just
reposition this, because this is the theory of... theory, no ...it’s,
it’s, it’s to point our attention to the possible carelessness or
neglect of the parents and of that group of family members who were
there ... but we have a problem and that is the disappearance of a
child. There is a child who has disappeared, in fact and that is the
problem that brings us here, is it not?
GA: And, and I can ask
you, and ask who is watching us if ... if a child disappeared, their
child, in these circumstances, one wishes not...
JAC: Yes ...
GA: Would you think, in
the first minute, that your son or daughter had been abducted by a
paedophile network, for paedophile reasons? Why paedophiles? A child
of this age, 3 years old, almost 4, if abducted by a paedophile does
not appear alive. Children who have been kidnapped by paedophiles ...
namely female, and have appeared alive, are closer to puberty, 9
years, 10 years and so on. We have the case of the Austrian citizen
and other cases out there, so .. and it is ... they are people who
know this. Why is it stated immediately, if he [sic] disappeared? She
could even have left on her own foot, gone alone, there may be an
abduction for revenge, for certain situations, a request for ransom,
whatever ... but why on the first day of ...? Especially because
Portugal, as the child's father said, Portugal was a country with a
lot of paedophilia, it even had a case here like the Casa Pia case.
JAC: Hmmm, hmmm
GA: That was said over
the phone, heard by other people who were heard in the process.
JAC: Very well, Gonçalo
Amaral, I propose that we move forward...
GA: Ok.
JAC: I, I would like to
just… because we are of the understanding that it is necessary to
have… due to the time that has passed on this process, that,
although very briefly, we make a small framework of the case that has
been dragging for 13 years as we know, and which constitutes, I can
say, the most impactful criminal mystery in the history of Portugal
because it is not closed and, moreover, as shown, in a renewed
international interest that over the past few weeks has manifested
itself in the face of developments by the German police and
authorities.
Let me ask you this question Gonçalo Amaral, could Christian Brueckner be the author of… whatever happened to Madeleine McCann or not?
GA: To answer that question, it needs first to be demonstrated that there was an abduction. And what I can demonstrate is that all those people who were there lied, there was never any scheme to… monitor the children who were at home, sleeping in the apartments… they went to the apartments to use the WC, this is written in statements they made, they told the receptionist that they were going to the apartment to see their children, they didn’t say they were going to the bathroom because the bathroom by the pool didn’t have great conditions to go there, they simulated a situation of abduction with the window, with the opening of it all... saying that the window was open, it was closed, a big mess...
JAC: First it was closed, then it was open...
GA: Where, where there is only one fingerprint...
JAC: Hmmm, hmmm
GA: …that is from the child's mother… there are no signs of burglary in that apartment, so, there are only 2 ways to get in, one with a false key, which was investigated and we did not reach conclusions that said it could have been used, so in principle it was not and the other entrance through the entrance of the sliding doors where everyone entered, alone. They led us… so, they lied, there were many lies, they led the PJ to… to waste a lot of time and to follow a path that… for example, took us to Robert Murat. There is a witness who tells us... he (Jane Tanner ou veut-il parler de la journaliste du Mirror ?) points the way of the man who carried the child to Robert Murat's villa. And despite this, this… let's say mistake, it was thanks to Robert Murat, thanks to the publicity surrounding Robert Murat, that we were able to have such a testimony from the Irish. FAUX That it is one of the Irish who says, that he sees, that he sees that man who he says that, he is their father, that he says, states that he is the father and I don't know in how much percent that he is the girl's father and who says this is not…
JAC: Gerry McCann was transporting the child...
GA: ...it is not Robert Murat, that one I know. So, this is all in the process. And it's in the process, and notice…
JAC: But it's also in the process...
GA: Just notice one thing, notice one thing...
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral let me, let me try to know...
GA: This, this, these people, these people, this is important to be said, these people who did what they did, which is... during that week they abandoned their children... where even, in this specific case, in this apartment from which Madeleine disappeared, Madeleine herself, on the previous day, or two before, was around… more than 10 pm crying more than, for more than an hour, screaming for her parents and no one went there, so, we don’t… we don’t know why they didn’t go, but the fact is that the surveillance system was not working, so to speak, or it was no longer necessary at that time, I agree, it may have been for any reason that we don’t know, but the fact is that she was there abandoned. And these people who abandoned their children, who lied to the police and continue to lie because they never told the truth of what actually happened, and that it was necessary to carry out a reconstitution in Portugal, still remains today to move or not move what went on there, and in fact define times, because it is necessary...
JAC: Why was this reconstitution never done?
GA: It wasn't done because there was a lot of media pressure. We were unable to do there the reconstitution...
JAC: In peace?
GA: Not just in peace, in practical terms. I, I remind you of just one… it’s… but going back a bit in terms of the reconstitution, these people left Portugal. They left Portugal, they all left and never came here… the… the couple…
JAC: But they were here for a long time, in those days after the… the…
GA: Exactly, but the friends had already left, and if they were Portuguese, have no doubts, they were here in Portugal, surely the reconstruction would have been done at any time. Here, the friends later refused to come back to do… do the reconstitution…
JAC: But were they summoned to it, were they notified for it?
GA: They were just as witnesses.
JAC: Hmm, hmm.
GA: And they refused to come. And if you notice, if you notice, over the years the British newspapers, and all the other newspapers in the world, are so… but mainly the British are interested in the case and never, but never tried to interview some of those people who were there, just and only the couple, so the others all who planned that scheme in terms of delivering 2 documents a bit (imperceptible)...
GMC contrôlait la narration.
JAC: Even in the 8-episode documentary that…
GA: …and I don't know how many more…
JAC: …is available on Netflix, these people don't appear, it's true…
GA: And they didn't appear.
JAC: It is true.
GA: And so, just to remind you this, we, from that point at which it was made... this sighting was made, let's say, this testimony...
JAC: That testimony that is related to that night around 10 pm
GA: ...in principle Madeleine (imperceptible), we tried, we tried at a certain time... running away from journalists, to cover that whole area even in terms of houses, from there to the sea. And when we were almost halfway, one of us is discovered, and we had to leave the area. It was a diligence that we never managed to finish, because of… the confusion that arose there…
JAC: The number of journalists that were there, yes...
GA: This was...
JAC: Let me...
GA: ...what happened.
JAC: Very well. Gonçalo Amaral, at the time, one can now understand, and I wanted to ask you this: Christian Brueckner was one of the people who came to be identified as one of the people of interest for the investigation at the time, as far as it was reported there were 6… 600 people or over who could be of interest for the investigation…
GA: A lot of diligences were taken at the time of the (imperceptible)...
JAC: Was Christian Brueckner one of those 600 people or not?
GA: Only rereading the process (imperceptible)...
JAC: You have no memory of that?
GA: I have been told that yes, that there went there knocking on the door, colleagues who are retired like me and who said that the person was not at home. But there were hundreds...
JAC: But, that is, it must have been...
GA: They were in the hundreds, and just (imperceptible)...
JAC: But note one thing Gonçalo Amaral, the, the question that is here... but the question that is here is...
GA: It could have been theft, we also did...
JAC: We know that he served a sentence...
GA: …there was the making of a list of burglars, namely burglary in apartments, and apparently this man was not in the list of apartment burglaries, he will have stolen…
JAC: Fuel...
GA: Yes, fuel.
JAC: Yes, but now what is known about... apparently what is known about this man is truly worrying, about... from various points of view...
GA: It's like I say, an almost perfect suspect...
JAC: But, but... but it is known that he has a long record of sexual crimes...
GA: Hmmm, hmmm.
JAC: …that in contrary to seem to be other such criminals, who do not have a particular fixation on a certain age, there are, there are apparently random behaviours, moreover he is sentenced for the rape of an American tourist…
GA: What I heard...
JAC: …75 years old at, at… the rape happened…
GA: Yes...
JAC: …at Praia da Luz…
GA: Yes, yes...
JAC: You know also... anyway, I would like to... that is, what I would like to understand is if he was investigated and if... why did the interest in him disappear, or if he was never taken seriously, with the information that was there at the time?
GA: You know... the, the information there was about paedophiles was only that they were paedophiles and people who were close to the village and as José Alberto said, they are in the hundreds and it is not possible to investigate each one in detail. Going further, I remember that, for example, we reached Albufeira… Albufeira [60Km East of PdL] and Tavira [120 km East of PdL] and so on, and investigations cannot be done that way…
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, but wait, this rape of this American tourist...
GA:… and note, what if…
JAC: ...was two years before Madeleine's disappearance...
GA: …what if… say again?
JAC: The rape of the 72 year old American tourist, I said 75…
GA: When was it communicated in terms to the PJ?
JAC: When was it?
GA: I don't know (shrugs)...
JAC: No... I don't know...
GA: I didn’t know.
JAC: There was no… no, if… the lady filed a complaint…
GA: We, for example, I can tell you...
JAC: ...the lady made a complaint...
GA: Where?
JAC: (…)
GA: When?
JAC: (…)
GA: Yes, in terms of the PJ, in terms of knowing... and if we are looking for a paedophile...
JAC: Because this man...
GA: …or are we looking for a, a, a rapist of adults?
JAC: No, no, no... certainly...
GA: I remind you...
JAC: ...but it happened two, two years earlier and he, he is now being held in a German prison, exactly serving a sentence, for this crime... this is the crime that led him to, now, to prison. And then it was possible...
GA: And he was identified much later...
JAC: He was identified in 2018...
GA: Well ... there it is, so in 2007 he wasn't identified.
JAC: …based on 2 evidences… based on two essential evidences….
GA: In 2007 he was not identified.
JAC: ...but there is hair that was found on the victim's bed...
GA: Yes...
JAC: …victim of the rape that was preserved and that now has allowed to update and make a match, make the…
GA: Yes. But that's another investigation, not the…
JAC: Certainly.
GA: ...Maddie case, it's another investigation ...
JAC: But it turns out that this man, who stayed in the Algarve and in that region for some time, it is how this is expl… this is how, how I try to understand, the photographs that were released by the German police about the houses, the places , vehicles, etc ... and I would also like to hear you about this, about, about these... this exercise from the German police which is to appeal to the memory of someone with some details very... I don't know if they are subtle, no... but, anyway, with some details and, and… do the photographs tell you something, for example, be it of the houses or of the vehicles that the German police revealed?
GA: I think the appeal serves what it serves, because for example the motorhome was removed, it was taken from Portugal to Germany to be examined, so from there...
JAC: A white and yellow VW Westfalia motorhome ...
GA: …and what was important was that, trying to understand why… those images that are passed and that were passed…
JAC: These?
GA: ...have been altered.
JAC: These? These are the images I collected yesterday, from the website of the German police...
GA: I can show you...
JAC: …BKA.
GA: I can show you the… a photograph, which is the photograph of the vehicle that this suspect was using, and would be using in 2007, according to the German police, and which is totally different from what they have shown us…
JAC: Is that the vehicle?
GA: This is the vehicle. And if you notice the photo in there (imperceptible) ...
JAC: But the vehicle is not the same!
GA: It's the same, it is.
JAC: Is it?
GA: If you notice the photo, if you have another photo of the…
JAC: We have.
GA: …rear of vehicle…
JAC: I think so ... I ... I ... have been gathering ... is it this one, this one?
JAC: I'm going to let the image be enlarged a little…
GA: ...the registration plate, covered, and has the letter "D", the registration number is Portuguese.
JAC: Because the car was...
GA: The car is from 82 and was registered in Portugal in 2004. If you want you can have the photo.
JAC: So, what you're saying is that this...
GA: Regarding the same pho… the same vehicle…
JAC: This photo is from when, do you have an idea?
GA: That photograph? That photograph is from last year.
JAC: This is from last year?
GA: It's from last year, so what matters to know is, the idea that (imperceptible)
JAC: That is, that is ...but last year that van that we were seeing in the images was already in Germany, or not?
GA: It would have gone from Portugal last year for Germany.
JAC: And was this photograph taken in Portugal or in Germany?
GA: In Portugal.
JAC: Hmm.
GA: This is another photograph of the same vehicle.
JAC: Excuse me...
GA: Now what one asks, what one asks, what?
JAC: That is, what are you saying with this?
GA: What am I saying? It's evident.
JAC: Is that the, the van that was shown in…
GA: ... the, the, the photo of the motorhome is completely different.
JAC: No, this motor… it's not the same motorhome.
GA: This is the same motorhome.
JAC: Hmm.
GA: This is the same motorhome, and it was the motorhome that was taken from here to Germany, to be examined where... and was used here as a deposit for figs and carob.
JAC: Hmm, hmm.
GA: And, it appeared... then this image appears without this personalization, so to speak...
JAC: Of these drawings?
GA: Yes, without those drawings. And what one asks is this, would that vehicle go unnoticed in Praia da Luz, in any other location or not? Surely not. And what one further asks is, there are several... what one asks is, did the... the German authorities come to the conclusion that at the time of 2007 the vehicle was not like this but was still painted white and so on? Who told them that?
JAC: Hmm. GA: Could it be that the German authorities, or the Germans or the English, I don't know who did this, it certainly wasn't in Portugal, because the Portuguese did not disclose the photographs, and in fact they have not disclosed anything in relation to the process, is it that whoever has disclosed that is trying to check information, so to speak? If someone calls, look, I saw the car on this location and... forget it, you didn't see anything because the car was in another way.
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, let me ask you, it is possible to know more...
GA: So there are several versions here...
JAC: …information about these photographs, where were they taken?
GA: These photographs were taken in the Algarve.
JAC: In the Alg .. right, in a location…
GA: You know that I know a lot of people who, who...
JAC: Yes...
GA: ...know the Algoz [55Km East of PdL] area...
JAC: …you worked in the Algarve for many years…
GA: ...people who are dedicated to picking oranges and other things... so they are photographs.
JAC: Hmmm…
GA: Now, another question, still in relation to... in the end, I don’t want to be dominating, say, the interview... there is something different about this, in this whole situation of... the almost perfect suspect as I call him, the scapegoat however one wants to say… there is a new data here, a data that hasn’t been arrived yet in terms of information, so, there’s a lot… the bomb was dropped, it was said that the suspect is similar to a… he isn’t, the images that are, are with 43 years old, so if you look at my images from 2013, I am completely different, as people change… but the new data, the new data, what is there, is that someone…
JAC: In other words, instead of disclo… this photograph that is being disseminated is current and it should have been one of 13 years ago, is that what you are saying?
JAC: Hmm.
GA: This is the same motorhome, and it was the motorhome that was taken from here to Germany, to be examined where... and was used here as a deposit for figs and carob.
JAC: Hmm, hmm.
GA: And, it appeared... then this image appears without this personalization, so to speak...
JAC: Of these drawings?
GA: Yes, without those drawings. And what one asks is this, would that vehicle go unnoticed in Praia da Luz, in any other location or not? Surely not. And what one further asks is, there are several... what one asks is, did the... the German authorities come to the conclusion that at the time of 2007 the vehicle was not like this but was still painted white and so on? Who told them that?
JAC: Hmm. GA: Could it be that the German authorities, or the Germans or the English, I don't know who did this, it certainly wasn't in Portugal, because the Portuguese did not disclose the photographs, and in fact they have not disclosed anything in relation to the process, is it that whoever has disclosed that is trying to check information, so to speak? If someone calls, look, I saw the car on this location and... forget it, you didn't see anything because the car was in another way.
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, let me ask you, it is possible to know more...
GA: So there are several versions here...
JAC: …information about these photographs, where were they taken?
GA: These photographs were taken in the Algarve.
JAC: In the Alg .. right, in a location…
GA: You know that I know a lot of people who, who...
JAC: Yes...
GA: ...know the Algoz [55Km East of PdL] area...
JAC: …you worked in the Algarve for many years…
GA: ...people who are dedicated to picking oranges and other things... so they are photographs.
JAC: Hmmm…
GA: Now, another question, still in relation to... in the end, I don’t want to be dominating, say, the interview... there is something different about this, in this whole situation of... the almost perfect suspect as I call him, the scapegoat however one wants to say… there is a new data here, a data that hasn’t been arrived yet in terms of information, so, there’s a lot… the bomb was dropped, it was said that the suspect is similar to a… he isn’t, the images that are, are with 43 years old, so if you look at my images from 2013, I am completely different, as people change… but the new data, the new data, what is there, is that someone…
JAC: In other words, instead of disclo… this photograph that is being disseminated is current and it should have been one of 13 years ago, is that what you are saying?
GA:
Yeah ... that (laughs) would be interesting. And... there's a new data
here. The new data is that the German authorities are asking ... they
are... it seems that they are trying to reexamine all, all the vestiges,
hepatic, biological, hematic and biological...
JAC: Blood.
GA: …that have been found. Where? We wait... Where? Inside the apartment, in the vehicle...
JAC: Rented...
GA: …rented by the couple and also on the street. There are only 3 places where vestiges were found: inside the apartment, on the street, where there is blood, where these vestiges were collected, and inside the couple's vehicle rented I don't know how many days later, I no longer remember. And this is what is the new data. And this is the big question: do the German authorities think they will solve the case, when… I even thought it was a wrong translation when a… a German police officer says that the child may have been shot inside the apartment… What does that mean? That there was blood. And in fact it was... it was the dogs, those dogs... someone said somewhere... a lawyer connected to the couple said that our investigation, that what was in my book, which is basically our investigation in those 4 months, it was not 13 years, nor 13 months, it was 4 months… that our investigation had been a fantasy, a fable… but you know that dogs were used, dogs sent by the English and suggested by the English, because it was them who suggested a death…
JAC: Yes...
GA: A death, worse, we talk of and...
JAC: I remember those images, the dogs identified the scent of blood...
GA: …we have always talked of an accident and the English speak about homicide. It's not us. They are the ones who talk about homicide. We talk about an accident. This is documented. And, such a shooting produces blood. We… in the examination that was carried out at the site, no vestige of a shooting was found, nor does the child who in the man’s arms show signs of having been shot, what she has is that she is sleeping soundly, this is said by the people who passed by there.
JAC: Seemed to be sleeping soundly.
GA: Seemed to be sleeping soundly. And so this is the data, is that the dogs that made these markings and these markings were made by the dogs, the vestiges that were collected with the help of these dogs, from the said fable, are the ones that the German police want to analyse. When saliva is spoken about...
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, let me just try, let me just try to understand something...
GA: Just, just to finish this question of the vestiges, when it comes to the saliva in Maddie's bed, it is a lie, it was not in Maddie's bed, it is in the bed by the window, and what the saliva is, is a mixture of baby saliva with breast milk... and were identified, the mother and the people who were in that apartment.
JAC: Before the McCanns?
GA: Before the McCanns. And, therefore, we have to wait...
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, I only have 1 minute left...
GA: ...to understand in what this will give...
JAC: …we only have 1 minute here, I would like, I would really like to prolong this conversation but unfortunately it won't be possible. We are here... what could be the interest of the German police in allowing themselves to be seduced, in your opinion by what you have just explained, in face of a, a ... a lead that leads nowhere in your opinion?
GA: It leads. It leads for the German authorities to have competence to investigate the case.
JAC: And they have?
GA: If they have a German suspect, there are those who say yes, there are those who say no, the case is here...
JAC: Can this be good or bad for the discovery of the material truth?
GA: I think that the police ... the Portuguese authorities and the Portuguese police can do here, our laboratories, what the Germans want to do there. There was no need to let it go to Germany again...
JAC: It already was.
GA: It was, it was last year, again something to be examined, it could have been examined here. It had already happened, that is said (imperceptible) error...
JAC: Let me repeat this question because it seems that your answer may be interesting, the fact that it is the German police who are conducting the investigation now, based on this, on this pretext, which is what I understand from your words...
GA: The German police conduct the investigation there in Germany...
JAC: But can that be a good thing?
GA: …because here, the PJ is the one conducting the investigation.
JAC: The question is, can this be good and, and relevant, or not for finding evidence that can explain what happened that day? In more (imperceptible)...
GA: Nowadays there are new techniques for, for analysing and, and... for... and even re-analyse what has been examined. If there is enough remnant, it is possible to reach other conclusions. I remind that in the vehicle rented by the couple there are hairs that were returned that is said that by the colouring it’s from the missing girl's, but as they have no root, they are unable to dee… to determine the DNA. It is known that there are laboratories that can do this...
JAC: Now...
GA: …so Germans who have money can easily solve this mystery.
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, I had many more questions to ask you...
GA: And I had a lot more to say.
JAC: I appreciate your availability, surely this will be in the next hours in the international media, right? In Germany, in England, which van is this after all...
GA: The one they presented.
JAC: Yes, right, right, right, we have no… no, there is no photograph from the German authorities with… an indication of the license plate, which could be… help to understand better…
GA: That may have been a technique. It's the same one.
JAC: Yes, but are you sure it's the same one?
GA: Oh, it's the same one!
JAC: This is the same one that was shown, but it is not the same because it was like that and now it is in another way. Gonçalo Amaral, thank you very much, for, for… for the contribution you ended up giving here. In the face of this case that continues to impassion and divide the opinions of many people until it is finally closed, if ever that will be possible. Do you believe it will be possible?
GA: There is a colleague of mine with whom I had lunch recently who says yes, and I believe him, that… that a lot is still going to happen. So let's wait...
JAC: Thank you very much, we will really have to stop here...
GA: It may take another 13 years and then I don't know if I'm here anymore...
JAC: Anyway, yes, it would be very, very prolonged. Thank you very much Gonçalo Amaral once again.
JAC: Blood.
GA: …that have been found. Where? We wait... Where? Inside the apartment, in the vehicle...
JAC: Rented...
GA: …rented by the couple and also on the street. There are only 3 places where vestiges were found: inside the apartment, on the street, where there is blood, where these vestiges were collected, and inside the couple's vehicle rented I don't know how many days later, I no longer remember. And this is what is the new data. And this is the big question: do the German authorities think they will solve the case, when… I even thought it was a wrong translation when a… a German police officer says that the child may have been shot inside the apartment… What does that mean? That there was blood. And in fact it was... it was the dogs, those dogs... someone said somewhere... a lawyer connected to the couple said that our investigation, that what was in my book, which is basically our investigation in those 4 months, it was not 13 years, nor 13 months, it was 4 months… that our investigation had been a fantasy, a fable… but you know that dogs were used, dogs sent by the English and suggested by the English, because it was them who suggested a death…
JAC: Yes...
GA: A death, worse, we talk of and...
JAC: I remember those images, the dogs identified the scent of blood...
GA: …we have always talked of an accident and the English speak about homicide. It's not us. They are the ones who talk about homicide. We talk about an accident. This is documented. And, such a shooting produces blood. We… in the examination that was carried out at the site, no vestige of a shooting was found, nor does the child who in the man’s arms show signs of having been shot, what she has is that she is sleeping soundly, this is said by the people who passed by there.
JAC: Seemed to be sleeping soundly.
GA: Seemed to be sleeping soundly. And so this is the data, is that the dogs that made these markings and these markings were made by the dogs, the vestiges that were collected with the help of these dogs, from the said fable, are the ones that the German police want to analyse. When saliva is spoken about...
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, let me just try, let me just try to understand something...
GA: Just, just to finish this question of the vestiges, when it comes to the saliva in Maddie's bed, it is a lie, it was not in Maddie's bed, it is in the bed by the window, and what the saliva is, is a mixture of baby saliva with breast milk... and were identified, the mother and the people who were in that apartment.
JAC: Before the McCanns?
GA: Before the McCanns. And, therefore, we have to wait...
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, I only have 1 minute left...
GA: ...to understand in what this will give...
JAC: …we only have 1 minute here, I would like, I would really like to prolong this conversation but unfortunately it won't be possible. We are here... what could be the interest of the German police in allowing themselves to be seduced, in your opinion by what you have just explained, in face of a, a ... a lead that leads nowhere in your opinion?
GA: It leads. It leads for the German authorities to have competence to investigate the case.
JAC: And they have?
GA: If they have a German suspect, there are those who say yes, there are those who say no, the case is here...
JAC: Can this be good or bad for the discovery of the material truth?
GA: I think that the police ... the Portuguese authorities and the Portuguese police can do here, our laboratories, what the Germans want to do there. There was no need to let it go to Germany again...
JAC: It already was.
GA: It was, it was last year, again something to be examined, it could have been examined here. It had already happened, that is said (imperceptible) error...
JAC: Let me repeat this question because it seems that your answer may be interesting, the fact that it is the German police who are conducting the investigation now, based on this, on this pretext, which is what I understand from your words...
GA: The German police conduct the investigation there in Germany...
JAC: But can that be a good thing?
GA: …because here, the PJ is the one conducting the investigation.
JAC: The question is, can this be good and, and relevant, or not for finding evidence that can explain what happened that day? In more (imperceptible)...
GA: Nowadays there are new techniques for, for analysing and, and... for... and even re-analyse what has been examined. If there is enough remnant, it is possible to reach other conclusions. I remind that in the vehicle rented by the couple there are hairs that were returned that is said that by the colouring it’s from the missing girl's, but as they have no root, they are unable to dee… to determine the DNA. It is known that there are laboratories that can do this...
JAC: Now...
GA: …so Germans who have money can easily solve this mystery.
JAC: Gonçalo Amaral, I had many more questions to ask you...
GA: And I had a lot more to say.
JAC: I appreciate your availability, surely this will be in the next hours in the international media, right? In Germany, in England, which van is this after all...
GA: The one they presented.
JAC: Yes, right, right, right, we have no… no, there is no photograph from the German authorities with… an indication of the license plate, which could be… help to understand better…
GA: That may have been a technique. It's the same one.
JAC: Yes, but are you sure it's the same one?
GA: Oh, it's the same one!
JAC: This is the same one that was shown, but it is not the same because it was like that and now it is in another way. Gonçalo Amaral, thank you very much, for, for… for the contribution you ended up giving here. In the face of this case that continues to impassion and divide the opinions of many people until it is finally closed, if ever that will be possible. Do you believe it will be possible?
GA: There is a colleague of mine with whom I had lunch recently who says yes, and I believe him, that… that a lot is still going to happen. So let's wait...
JAC: Thank you very much, we will really have to stop here...
GA: It may take another 13 years and then I don't know if I'm here anymore...
JAC: Anyway, yes, it would be very, very prolonged. Thank you very much Gonçalo Amaral once again.
