Leicestershire Constabulary
08.04.08
4078 “And you’ve
been given a letter from us outlining the objectives of this
interview but if at any time you want to stop and ask a question
that’s fine.”
4078 “It’s just a
chat really.”
4078 “Obviously I’m
going to try and licit as much information out of you as we can.”
4078 “And likewise I
know you’re going to try and remember as much as you can.”
4078 “We’ve
already discussed the fact that you wanted to refresh your memory,
well you might want to refresh your memory.”
4078 “By looking at
the statement that you gave previously.”
4078 “That’s fine
but we’ve agreed before the interview that you’re going to do as
much as you can prior to doing that.”
4078 “And then when
you get to the stage that you feel you want to do that just say so.”
À toutes ces phrases, Jane répond "ouais".
4078 “Your time and
co-operation is obviously appreciated but I just want to ask you to
be patient with me because no doubt we’ll be covering things that
you’ve gone over time and time again.”
“Yeah err well we’re
very good friends with David and Fiona, and Matt and Rachael
Ella’s, Ella was three
and Evie was, she’s September so one, she would have been one, one
in May.”
we know Kate and Gerry,
we’d sort of socialised with them but not as well probably as the
other, as the other two couples.”
Russell err had lived,
well he was a student with both Matt and Dave and err and then with
Dave and Fiona when they were living together, so, and I mean I’ve
known Russell for twelve, I think it’s twelve years now so you know
sort of when Russell was living with David and Fiona I was obviously
there a lot as well
I actually did first meet
them but it was around about the time that Ella and Madeleine were
born because Russell was working with Gerry at the Royal and I can
remember, I honestly can’t remember the first time I actually met
them exactly Fi knew Kate well at that point because they were both
doing anaesthetics together at that stage.”
with Kate and Gerry we
probably saw them two or three times a year but Dave and Fi we
probably saw every week, if not more often because we just lived down
the road, and Matt and Rachael they moved away, they were in London.
4078 “Err I think
I’ve read somewhere that, was it Ella had a foot operation?”
Reply “Yes, the week
before. It didn’t go…”
Reply “Err, five
D.”
The interview ceased at
1018 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
Duration of Interview: 61 minutes
Dave and Fi’s apartment
was on the second floor because theirs was the biggest, theirs was
sort of the biggest apartment ...
Il n'était pas plus grand que celui des MC.
Evie probably go to the
kids club in the morning but then stay with us, stay with us in the
afternoon and that morning would give, well me a break you know to
do, to do something else...
that was a tennis lesson
every morning, I think it was at, I think it was nine o’ clock but
it might have been nine thirty but it was every morning until the end
of the week.”
I don’t know whether
Matt was feeling ill by that point but Matt was actually ill that
first night
that first Sunday Ella
didn’t go to the kids club straight away purely because it’s the
first day there and obviously because she had been poorly the week
before... I know Ella didn’t go, so I presume we stayed with Ella
or either Russell or myself you know stayed with Ella by the pool
because there’s like a park area by the pool, so.”
4078 “Do you
remember what eating arrangements you had that day?”
Reply “We went, that
was the first day that we went to the, the Tapas bar.”
4078 “And when was
it decided that you’d be going there?”
We went to the Millennium
for breakfast yeah. I think that first morning on the Sunday
everybody, the whole group went that first, well I’m not sure if
Dave and Fi did but I know Kate and Gerry went that first morning to
the Millennium Restaurant and I think they found it quite a, a trail
to get because they’d got three kids, the ones that were two, they
were carrying the twins and dragging Madeleine so I think then after
that they decided they’d have breakfast in their room after their
first day because it was a bit of a, not an ordeal, but it was a bit
of a trek to get back.”
I alerted somebody to
maybe what we were doing because I actually went down, before we went
down I went down with my monitor to check if it was working because
Dave and Fi had a monitor which was quite a good one, a very high
spec monitor, whereas ours wasn’t such high spec so I was worried
that it wouldn’t work in the Tapas bar.”
it worked but not, I
wasn’t completely confident in, totally confident in it. So as I
say looking back on it now you think oh, I did that, could that have
actually shown somebody what we were doing, you know, me standing
there like an idiot with my bloody monitor, you know, that sort of,
that has crossed my mind since but I think we decided before we went,
one of the attractions of a Mark Warner holiday was the baby
listening service that they normally offer.”
“And we did know that
they didn’t offer it, offer it there and we sort of thought, at
that point we thought we can either do it between ourselves and one
night one couple you know stay back and then do the baby listening
or, but then when we found where we were and the proximity to the
restaurant we just sort of thought if we are checking and doing the
baby listening as is done in other Mark Warner resorts we should be
okay, which it obviously wasn’t, but that was, that was the thought
process behind it.”
Quand même très curieux puisqu’il chacun
vérifiait seulement ses mômes.
you feel guilty
sometimes about…”
Reply “Of course.”
4078 “What
happened.”
we were lulled into a
false sense of security because this baby listening service is
offered in other places and yeah you look at it now knowing what
happened and you’d think ah yes you know we were probably reckless
but it didn’t feel like that because this is a service that is
offered, you know, marketed as a service in other resorts and we felt
we were doing more than is maybe offered there.”
Ils auraient dû se demander précisément pourquoi ce service n'était pas offert à PDL. Ils se comportent comme des enfants, c'est la faute à tout le monde sauf à eux.
Pour ne rien dire évidemment que dans le listening service de MW, les gens ferment leurs appartements à clef.
4078 “And your
judgement at the time you considered that you’d be able to cover
the, you checking on the children from the proximity of the
restaurant?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “And you felt
okay with what…”
Reply “I think with
that plus the monitor that we had I think we just thought yes it’s
fine and I think you know your own children, again, we were proved
wrong because Evie did wake up but they tend to, they sleep well, if
they wake up it tends to be in the middle of the night, not early on,
you know. And things like that you just, we were just weighing it up
and it seemed a reasonable risk, well I did think of it as a
reasonable risk then it just, we thought it would be fine.”
it was something that is
offered elsewhere and we just thought, you don’t imagine in a
million years that, I mean we were probably more worried about them
waking up and thinking where are we.”
Au moins elle dit ça, ce à quoi tout parent penserait. Même les MC...
Ella knows to shut down
the monitor if, because she’s used them at home you know, so, and
you just think, I don’t know, at that point I was, it never crossed
my mind that somebody could take them, that wasn’t even a concern.
And the door, they
couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point
of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because
that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so
she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean
obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself
harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we
thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and
Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”
If we were to say
poolside and roadside, would that make it clearer which entrance did
you use mostly?”
Reply “For checking
or for anything?”
4078 “For anything.
Was there a check, that you’d use mostly?”
Reply “Err the back,
the roadside entrance because you couldn’t actually get in to the
err the poolside entrance but there was no key to get in from the
outside so you could only get in there if it was unlocked. Loquet
So the only time we’d
have probably used the back, the poolside entrance is during the day
if somebody else was in there already.”
4078 “Okay, so when
you went out for your meal…”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “In the
evening, the poolside door was always locked in your apartment.”
Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “So when you
did your treks you had to go in through the roadside?”
Reply “Back, yeah
through the back door.”
4078 “Was that a
longer journey?”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “Having not
been there I’m just imagining.”
Reply “Yeah, yeah it
is longer.”
4078 “And how long
would it take you to walk from the Tapas to your apartment?”
Reply “Err I don’t
know, a minute and a half, yeah about a minute and a half.”
4078 “Not long at
all?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah,
no it’s plenty, I mean no longer than I’d say two, no I don’t
even think it would be two minutes, a minute.”
4078 “And did you
leave your roadside door locked or was it unlocked?”
Reply “Yes, yeah
well we made, as I said we made sure that was because you could dead
lock it as well and that was one of our concerns was Ella waking up
and wandering, I mean like I say we didn’t think she would but that
was probably our, you know so she couldn’t get out the actual
apartment, that was err so we did make sure that was dead locked
every night.”
4078 “Was your
apartment the same layout as the MCCANN’S or was it slightly
different?”
Err I think it was the same more or less.
Il semble qu'il était plus petit.
We never opened those
shutters at all the whole time we were there because it was great
because it made the room really dark so it was good for them
sleeping.”
And we didn’t use that
room in the day so I don’t think we ever, well I certainly never
even, never opened them or shut them.”
4078 “What was the
weather like when you were there?”
it wasn’t, that’s
one reason why we didn’t open the shutters to open the window or
anything in that room, it wasn’t actually really hot at all, it was
actually quite cloudy in the days and at night it was actually quite
chilly.”
it was really, really
cold,
4078 “And you knew
that they would be safe within the apartment because they wouldn’t
be able to wander out.”
I’m aware that later on
in the group people started to take it in turns to check other
people’s children.”
I think the first night
I think we were all checking our own but as we became more
comfortable with it, it was if one person was going back they would
listen, listen you know at the door as well so, I don’t think, it
wasn’t a, I don’t think it was a specific decision right now we
all stopped, we’ll start checking on each other’s children, it
was just a you know, you’re going back, you know, have a, have a
listen as well.”
we did try to do it every
half an hour and I’d say out of everybody Kate and Gerry were the,
the most strict on that, they were, we almost took them as the lead
at times for when we, you know when we checked because they were
definitely, you know were definitely every half an hour whereas we
were the same, we probably did it at course, you know we probably do
it because we tend to get to there at different times but err but you
know I think it was more or less, more or less every, every half an
hour.”
Ce n'est ni la première ni la dernière fois que Jane essaie de donner des MC l'image d'un couple-modèle.
we often tended to have
lunch in err Dave and Fi’s room, again because it was a bigger room
and we just tended to congregate there.”
4078 “Did everybody
do that?”
Reply “They did but
apart from Kate and Gerry often had it in their own, their own
apartment, err I don’t know whether they ever came, I don’t think
they ever, I think they tended to have lunch, lunch in their own
apartment but their, Sean and Amelie tended to go back to the kids
club in the afternoon whereas err the rest of us, because they were
younger they didn’t, so.”
4078 “What’s,
what, how do they compare in age to Evie?”
Reply “Err they were
three in February and Evie’s three in September so, a bit of maths,
they’re about six, seven months older.”
4078 “And how long
would the tea process last?”
Reply “Probably
about forty five minutes, half an hour, forty five minutes.”
after they’d had their
tea we always tend to take them to the play area, we’d sort of go
to the play area and have a run around, you know, after tea and
that’s when everybody would probably be, you know, we’d all get
together after the day.”
what did you think of
them at that stage?”
Reply “Yeah they
were nice, normal people, yeah you know, sort of, that’s the thing,
I mean Gerry, the sort of person Gerry is, I could never see us being
best buddies because he’s very, we’re very different. I think
he’s very err he’s quite forthright (tranchant) and so I don’t
think we’d ever be best friends but there’s no problem there or
anything like that you know, I feel bad saying that because it makes
it sound like there is a problem but there’s not but you know it’s
not, whereas Kate I was really, I was getting to know Kate quite well
but yeah I think Gerry is sort of like more of a man’s man maybe.”
I think he’s, we’re
probably very different, I think he’s err yeah I’m trying to put
it in to words because if I say he, he doesn’t intimidate me in any
shape or form but you know what I mean I think he’s probably the
person out of the whole group that I would feel least comfortable
with, you know, just on, just chatting because we probably haven’t
got as much in common.”
With Kate it was fine
yeah. I say it was nice to have the opportunity to get to know, get
to know Kate and yeah she’s lovely, so yeah we sort of, I think we
were you know forming more of a, more of a friendship.”
you’ve already said
that you were in the habit of going to David and Fiona’s for
lunch.”
Did you go into any of
the other apartments?”
We went in to Matt and
Rachael’s apartment but I hadn’t been in to Kate and Gerry’s
apartment until, well the night Madeleine went missing.
Tuesday I think there
might have been a quiz that night in the Tapas bar but I’m not
sure,
about your baby
monitor?”did you take that with you every night for the duration of
the holiday?”
Reply “Yes, yeah.”
there was a wall behind
me so I’d put it on there “I wasn’t convinced it was really
always you know totally working.”
I can’t even think I
ever saw anybody when I walked back from the check but no I never saw
anybody at all apart from (inaudible).”
it seems really odd to
go on holiday and you don’t go to the beach, but by this stage no
we hadn’t, well I’d been but we hadn’t taken the children down
to the beach.”
It’ll be Wednesday the
second of May. What can you remember about the Wednesday?”
there was one night when
Russell didn’t come to dinner and I think it was the Wednesday but
it could have been the Tuesday because Evie was sick. I’d say it
would be Tuesday, which is why I think it was the quiz night because
Russell wasn’t there when it was the quiz night.”
there was two quiz
nights. There was one quiz night where they just brought round a
sheet of paper with pictures on or something and it was sort of
lasted about five, ten minutes, but then there was a second quiz
night which was a couple of rounds and that was, that was when
Russell wasn’t there because we were thinking it would be quite
good if he was there because he’s got a memory for silly facts.”
“The mini quiz was
before the main quiz.”
4078 “So your
contact with Kate was limited to your tennis lessons and then to sort of just sitting socially..”
Reply “Yeah.”
Actually that morning was
the morning Ella and Madeleine had the tennis lesson I think on the Wednesday. You’ve got the picture of…”
La photo aux balles de tennis ?
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “Err so after the, would it be the Wednesday, after our tennis lesson they all came down so we did stay and watch them for a bit, so that makes me wonder if it was actually the sailing (sailing des adultes) that day.
Reply “Err so after the, would it be the Wednesday, after our tennis lesson they all came down so we did stay and watch them for a bit, so that makes me wonder if it was actually the sailing (sailing des adultes) that day.
the sailing started at half eleven so between half ten
and half eleven that day we would have stood and, we stood and
watched, I stood with Kate and probably Rachael we watched them
having their, the kids having their tennis lesson.
“Do you remember if
you went to David and Fiona’s, was it every day you went there,
or?”
Reply “Err I think,
it was every day except I think on the Thursday we actually ate in,
Matt and Rachael came to our apartment, it was just us and Matt and
Rachael. I can’t remember why we didn’t go up to Dave and Fi’s
but I don’t know whether one of their kids had gone to bed already
or something but I think every day up to that point we had eaten in
their apartment, but on the Thursday it was just Matt and Rachael
came, came, came to ours.”
Qu'est-ce qui pourrait avoir modifié la routine de ce jeudi ?
4078 “Okay. So on
the Wednesday then you’re likely to have been at David and
Fiona’s?”
Reply “I think so.
I’m not sure but I think so.”
4078 “Right. Do you
remember what happened in the afternoon on the Wednesday?”
Reply “Err no, the
afternoons are harder in a way because there was no set activities to
jog, jog my memory,
4078 “At the Tapas
bar, what can you remember about that?”
Reply “Well I’d
say out of all the nights this was the one we stayed the latest the
other nights we’d been probably you know going quite err early and
out of all the nights this was probably the one where we did have
more to drink than the other nights. it was probably the longer
night that we stayed in the Tapas bar.”
Reply “I think it
was definitely the Tuesday that he was, he wasn’t there.”
Reply “Err but
Rachael wasn’t there that night because she’d got the bug that
Matt had had earlier in the week so she, she wasn’t there.”On the
Wednesday night.”
4078 “And what time
do you think you stayed there until that night?”
Reply “I think it
was midnight that night
I don’t know, we
didn’t go back to check so that was probably the longest that the
check hadn’t been, hadn’t been done you know. Err because I
don’t, you know, I mean well one of us I don’t think went back
while we were in the bar area but we were probably in there for
about, it was probably about forty minutes.”
I’m trying to think if
by that point we were checking on each other’s…”
I listened at Matt and
Rachael’s, you know at some point we listened at Matt and Rachael’s
window and down there but err no I can’t remember, but by that
stage I think we were listening but we didn’t, I don’t know
whether people actually went in to, to be honest nobody, if we hadn’t
gone nobody could have gone in to ours because they’d need the key
so when people did check ours they did, they did just listen, so.”
you and Russell didn’t
take tennis equipment.”
Reply “No, no.”
4078 “Or sailing
equipment.”
I don’t know whether
Kate and Gerry took, they might have taken racquets because I think
they’d always, they’d always been planning to do the tennis,
especially Gerry. Gerry had always been planning to do the tennis so
I don’t know whether he took a tennis racquet or not,
take what was available,
yeah.”
“I don’t know about
Kate, I think Gerry might have done but again, I don’t know, I’m
just surmising just because they’re keener tennis players.”
You can’t picture
seeing him or her at any stage with a full bag of tennis equipment
or?”
Reply “No.” Très
catégorique !
Date of Interview:
08/04/08
Duration of Interview: 45 minutes
.
4078 “Madeleine, how
much of Madeleine did you see?”
Reply “Not that much really because only really because she didn’t come to breakfast, so we saw the other children at breakfast and their lunch, but because they tended to have breakfast and lunch separately, the only time I really saw her was at, erm, after high tea when we were playing in the play area, was the main times that I probably saw her during the week”.
4078 “And how would
you describe Madeleine?”
Reply “Very, she was
very lively, a very lively, happy, a happy little girl really.
Because, probably a bit of, we were almost a bit worried how Ella and
Madeleine would get on, because Ella’s quite shy and sensitive and
Madeleine’s very, erm, I don’t know whether you can call a child
vivacious, but, you know, sort of very, erm, outgoing sociable,
ouverte and. But, I mean, they did, they got on and they had a whale
of a time. But, yeah, very, very lively, chatty, a chatty little
girl. I mean, to be honest, I know Madeleine probably less well than
I know Kate and Gerry, because often, with Kate and Gerry, we saw
them, it was like at fortieth birthday parties and that sort of
thing. So, Madeleine herself, I wouldn’t say as, I didn’t know
her as a little girl, whereas, you know, the other children, Millie
and the other ones, you know, I saw very regularly”.
4078 “So your
impressions of Madeleine is that she is confident, happy?”
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Intelligent?”
Reply “Yeah, very,
yeah, you know, very”.
4078 “And is there
anything about her that would make her stand out from the rest of the
children in that group?”
Reply “I think just
the fact she is very outgoing,extravertie, you know. As I say, Ella, in her
nature, is a bit more, you know, quiet and, erm, a bit more probably
reserved. Well, again, I don’t know whether you’d call a child
reserved, but more, you know, not quite so”.
4078 “Hangs back and
sees what is going on?”
Reply “Yeah, she’s,
yeah, whereas, I think Madeleine would be, she would always be in the
centre, anything that was going on she would be, I don’t mean to
say the ring-leader, but she would be at the centre of it, so”. Une
meneuse ?
she wasn’t, no, bratty
or sort of, I can’t remember the word I’m trying to look for,
precocious”.
she was just very, and
she was obviously, you know, they were enjoying themselves, they were
running around screaming, you know, sort of chasing them round the
play area, you know. That’s my main memory of Madeleine from the
holiday, is in the play area, you know, we were sort of chasing them
around and, you know, just being, just running around, quite happy”.
Thursday morning I didn’t
go for breakfast at Millennium, I just went straight to the,
straight to the tennis lesson. So I think Russell took, Russell took
Ella and Evie up to the Millennium
on the Thursday another
group of children came down for their tennis lesson and that’s when
Russell and this other person was there with the video camera.
4078 “Not
Madeleine?”
Reply “Not Madeleine
and Ella, no, another group. it was the same age group but it was
the other half of the group that were having their tennis lesson”.
Russell, me and Evie
walked down to the beach. I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate
did then (inaudible) I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d
taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen
Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’. we saw Ella and Madeleine
and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come
off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm,
tut, the Kids Club, so”.
Mais ni Fiona ni David ne disent qu'ils ont vu Madeleine et Ella faire de la voile.
Thursday was probably the first day I
think the sun had more come out in the day”.
And I think that day was
the day we had lunch in our apartment with just Matt and Rachael and
not Dave and Fi.
Kate and Gerry brought
the kids, all the kids down to the play area to, they would have
their lunch before they took them back to the Kids Club, and I think
that was about two, quarter past two’ish, and I can remember
Madeleine shouting things to us on the tennis court, you know, and I
can remember Gerry sort of going ‘Oh good shot’ or whatever. And
I think that would have been the last time that I personally, you
know, I personally saw Madeleine. Then they took the twins up to the
Kids Club and I presume Madeleine back to the, to the other one,
because then Kate and Gerry, I think we saw them, I can’t remember
for exactly, but I think we saw them when we come back, because
they’d booked a, erm, a private tennis lesson, just the two of
them, that afternoon, and I think, I don’t, I can’t remember
whether we saw them coming back before me and Rachael finished or
whether we saw them doing that when we then went down to the beach,
but I remember seeing Kate and Gerry coming back to have their, have
their private tennis lesson. So anyway me and Rachael probably
knocked up for about any hour maybe or probably a bit less than an
hour, then went back and then, then Matt and Russ, when we got back,
Matt and Russ went down to the beach and I think they took a boat
out, erm, Matt fell off the boat and nearly lost Matt off the side of
the boat and we thought that would be the drama of the day, but. So,
yeah, then they went down to their and then we’d arranged to
actually take all the kids down to the beach with Dave and Fi and
Dianne that afternoon, so then when Evie and Grace woke up, we all
well followed and all went down to the beach as a group, but not
with, but Kate and Gerry didn’t come then because they’d booked
this private, you know, this private lesson”.
So everybody was there
apart from Gerry and Kate and Madeleine and the twins?”
Reply “And Ella.
Ella was still in the Kids Club at this point as well”.
we played with the kids
for probably about an hour and a half on the beach. And then Russell
went to get, pick Ella up from the Kids Club and he brought her back
down, back down to the beach”.
I think it was about
five. It would have been before, because they used to walk them up
for tea, so because we were going to give them all tea on the beach
we didn’t, we made sure it was before they left, but it would have
probably have been about, just before five I think”.
4078 “And how long
did it take you to go from the beach to the Kids Club?”
Reply “Erm, phew,
five minutes”.
And then we walked up
to, I think it’s Café Paris, Parisio or something, it’s the café
that’s on the front, and we just had, had some drinks there and
gave the kids some tea, so we got them some tea, because obviously
they weren’t having it in the, the Kids, they didn’t have the
provided tea
Every night there was
social tennis actually, so that’s probably what happened after tea
on most nights, we’d go and do an hour of tennis and sort of mix
and match between us all, so the kids would be playing in the, erm,
the play area, and, you know, we’d sort of like, somebody will stay
and play with the kids and then we’d swap in and out if it was.
But like they had, one night they had a ladies’ night, but Thursday
night was actually the men’s night of tennis and I think somebody,
basically made, tried to make ourselves as awkward as possible on
this holiday, I think, because somebody had asked, because there
weren’t many people there and most of the people playing tennis
were in our group except a few others, they sort of said ‘Oh could
it be just slightly’, it was either slightly earlier or slightly
later, so I think it was actually, I think normally it started at
half six but we’d asked ‘Could the social tennis start at six’,
so that they then gave us time to get the kids into bed afterwards”.
I can remember saying to
Russell and Matt and everything, it was about quarter past six, I
said ‘Oh you’ve got to go to the men’s night tennis because
they’ve changed the times for us and now you’re not bloody
going’, you know, that sort of, it was that sort of thing. So I
think at about quarter past six they, they all went up to, erm, to
the men’s tennis”. I saw, we saw Kate running when we were at the
Café Parisio or whatever it was, it was before we’d gone to the
café that we saw Kate running”.
4078 “Right. So it
was before teatime?”
Reply “Before, yeah.
So it would have probably been before five, it would have been sort
of, either before, definitely before half past five I would have said
we’d seen her, yeah”.
4078 “And she was on
her own?”
yeah, the, sorry,
Russell, Matt and Dave went up to, back up to the complex, for want
of a better word, to play tennis, because we sort of said ‘Well’”.
4078 “You’ve got
to?”
Reply “’You’ve
got to because’. I think Russell and I are probably more sort of
laid back and just go with the flow a bit, but some of the people on
the holiday were quite sort of ‘Oh we’ll ask, we’ll get this’,
you know, a bit like booking the Tapas Restaurant every night, I
don’t think it would ever have crossed Russell and my mind to try
and get a block booking, but, erm, you know, I think they sort of”.
4078 “Once somebody
has you feel obliged to go along with it?”
Reply “Well, I
think, yeah, I mean, and we actually did have a conversation, it’s
one of those ‘What ifs’ as well, I can remember on the morning of
the, Thursday morning by the tennis, at the tennis, somebody in our
tennis group had tried to book the Tapas and they couldn’t get in
because it was already full. And I can remember thinking at that
point, and I just felt, you know, ‘Good’, because they were
bloomin’ awkward by booking it out. And they were sort of saying
well it’s a bit ridiculous that they couldn’t have got in because
they’d booked, they’d tried to book in, you know, they’d been
there at nine o’clock to book in and they still couldn’t get in.
So, we did, at that point, I can remember having this conversation
was ‘Oh shall we go somewhere different’, but it never happened,
but. And Kate was, I think Kate was there then, I can’t remember
who else, but we did actually say ‘Oh shall we, shall we go
somewhere different’. And I think almost at that point we had
considered it, but I think the problem was the kids were so tired
after having such full days, I think it was more ‘Well it’s
worked every other night’. But I know definitely from my point of
view I felt quite bad that we were taking this, you know, this block
booking every night and it was affecting other people using it”.
Gerald fait référence à un changement de lieu pour dîner dans le documentaire de Emma Loach diffusé le 30 avril 2008. Il est possible, ce ne serait pas la première fois, que Jane ait délibérément fait allusion à un projet qui n'a, de fait, ni queue ni tête. Après avoir obtenu, autorité du nombre, le passe-droit d'une table réserée au Tapas pour toute la semaine, il aurait au minimum été mal venu de décommander quelques heures avant, interdisant à ceux qui n'étaient pas parvenus à avoir une table de changer leur programme de substitution.
4078 “What were the
other options then for eating, was there a good option close by?”
in terms of ones that you
wouldn’t have to pay extra for, it was the Millennium,our kids as
they are growing up, but we tend to drag our kids with us more, you
know, they have never really had a certain bedtime as such, I think”.
we followed up probably
about quarter of an hour later with all the kids and we went to the
play area by the tennis courts and had a, you know, we probably
stayed there for about half an hour or so. At that point, I’m not,
I can’t say how long that was, about half an hour”.
Gerry was there playing
tennis”.
we stayed there for a bit
and then took the children back and got them, you know, bathed and
blah blah and got them ready for bed, Russell came back about quarter
to eight. it was probably about quarter past eight by the time we
actually put them, them in, them into bed. And then I went down to
the restaurant just after half eight. There’s another, another
thing that I was feeling bad about was, erm, we’d got this block
booking for half past eight, but because Dave and Fi are so rubbish
at getting anywhere, again they’re always late, it was edging back
every night, so we were sort of getting to the place of sort of
quarter to nine, nine o’clock, when everybody was getting there
and, as I said earlier, a lot of people were going earlier, you know,
earlier in the evening, so I was very conscious we were sort of
keeping all the waiters there late, you know, not later, but later
than they probably would, would normally be there, so. So I think by
that stage we knew what the menu was, so I’d got Russell’s order
but he stayed, because the children had only been asleep for quarter
of an hour, he stayed back in the room for a bit longer, just to
check that they were definitely asleep before, before he came, came
to join, you know, everybody else”.
“Kate and Gerry were
there already and they were talking to two people that Gerry played
tennis with
it was just one big round
table there Kate and Gerry were standing up, talking to them”.
soon after I’d got down
we sat down at our table next it was, erm, Matt and Rachael And then
Russell came down, probably about quarter to’ish, I think it was,
probably sort of five or ten minutes after, after me. And then it
was getting quite late again and Dave, Fi and Dianne were nowhere to
be seen, so Matt actually, I think it had got to the point when it
was like ‘Oh Matt go and’ and Matt said he’d go back and chivvy
them along. I think Fi had actually been for a run which is why it
had taken, why she was, they were taking longer. Erm, yeah, so Matt
went back, erm, but he actually met them coming down. But I think
because he was up he thought while he was up he’d go and have a
listen just to check, you know, there was no noise from Grace. I
think he must have actually been a bit longer, I think we’d
actually been there for about quarter of an hour before Dave and Fi,
you know, all of us had been there for about ten or fifteen minutes
before they actually appeared, so”.
I was sitting next to
Kate on one side and I think it was Rachael, I think it was Rachael
the other side. Erm, yeah, I think it was, erm, so it was Kate, me,
Rachael and then I think, erm, I’m trying to think where everybody
else was. Erm, I think Dianne was next to Rachael, here. I really
can’t, I can’t really, I can’t picture exactly, but I know, I
know I was next to Kate, that’s in my head, and I think it was
Rachael the other side, the other side of me. And I think Russell
might have been the other side of Kate or Matt was next”.
I was almost facing the
bar area, so I was sort of, yeah, I had my, to where the apartments
was, I was sort of perpendicular”.
I think in some ways it
had been the nicest day because the weather had been nicer, we’d
all had the chance, you know, we’d taken the kids to the beach, we
were all saying, you know, it was probably, it’s ironic, but it had
been the best day of the holiday so far because, you know, we’d
been able to do something with the kids and blah blah, so”.
Matt I know he listened
at our window. And I don’t know whether he went in to see Grace,
but I know he listened at Grace. And I don’t know whether he
listened at Madeleine’s window at that point,
I specifically remember
saying ‘It’s been the best day of the holiday so far’
Une phrase que Kate a mis dans la bouche de MMC.
it was actually quite,
quite cold”.
Date of Interview:
08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit
Duration of Interview: 80 minutes
you said that you had
spoken with Russell over lunch and you now realise your plan is
wrong?”
Russell said he was
actually sitting between, erm, Rachael and Dianne. So I think, I’ve
got Dianne there. So Russell was there. And I think Dave, I think
Dave might have been there and Fiona there”.
4078 “Okay. So it
goes then from you, anti-clockwise if you like, it is you and Kate,
Matthew?”
“Fiona”.David
PAYNE?”Gerry. Dianne. Russell?”and then Rachael”.and then
back to you?”
Ce n'est pas encore ça.
I’m not sure when,
when abouts in the meal, but I did have a conversation with Kate
about, she’d said that she’d, Madeleine had said something
strange about ‘Where were you last night when I woke up’. I think
she said ‘When Sean and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it
was when two of them woke up. So I think Kate was more worried that
night, you know, whether leaving them was the, the right thing, or so
to speak, so.
Selon Fiona Kate était inquiète d'avoir laissé la porte-fenêtre ouverte pour permettre à MMC de sortir et d'aller à la recherche de ses parents.
Gerry went off to his check and he was longer than a
bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put
the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that
night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you
know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the
score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal.
Personne n'a trouvé qu'il s'était absenté plus longtemps qu'habituellement. Kate n'a de cesse de pointer cela. Bizarre, surtout que Jane n'est pas encore partie... et elle est censée être partie 5 minutes après Gerald...
Erm, and then I
think we thought ‘Oh well the starters are going to appear any
minute’. I sort of walked up the road. And then Gerry was there,
he was talking to Jez WILKINS in the road, well they were sort of, as
I went by. So I think I thought then ‘Oh that’s why Jez’, not
Jez, ‘That’s why Gerry has been, you know, that’s why he’s
longer than we thought’”.
How long after Gerry had
gone was it before you went to do your check?”
it must have been at
least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone,
before I actually left there had been the conversations about him
being waylaid. sort of five or ten minutes,
4078 “It is a long
time ago, I know, we have already discussed the feasibility of this.
But describe, not just that you saw Gerry up the road, describe what
route you take and what you can see and what you can hear and whether
it is light or dark and any other noises that you are conscious of”.
Reply I remember I was
wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d
borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece,
it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on
and cropped trousers I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, I
know, I think Gerry thinks he was somewhere different to where I
think they were standing,
Comment sait-elle cela ?
but I was fairly sure, as I walked up the
road, they were standing, one of them was in the road and one of them
was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought it was on the
side of the road that I was walking, but I know Gerry thinks they
were the other side. But I thought they were closer by, because as I
walked by, I almost did go to sort of acknowledge them and I thought
at that point ‘Oh they were cha cha cha’ and I did think, you
know, I didn’t, I didn’t know whether they’d seen me or not,
but I did actually go to acknowledge them and I think if they’d
have been that far away I don’t know whether I would have sort of
almost gone to say hello, but. But they were talking quite
(inaudible), so I just carried on, you know, up, up the road. I
mean, I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they
were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I
thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway. I think
sort of”.
I think one of them was
in the road and I think, I thought it was Jez in the road because he
had the pram. And I don’t know which, I can’t remember which way
he was facing. No, I mean, I think I remember in my statement I did
say, but I can’t remember now which way he was facing. And I
thought Gerry was almost like on the edge of the pavement or just,
just in the road sort of, but definitely sort of by that, sort of
more by this alleyway. I don’t think they were by the apartment
gate, I thought they were sort of a bit further down, down the road
than that”.
I don’t think they
were right outside the gate for sure. I don’t, I’m not sure, but
they were definitely, I definitely can’t remember them being right
over here, purely because I know I did go to acknowledge them and I
don’t think if they were over there I would have thought to
acknowledge them. Because it was almost like ‘Oh did I ignore them
as I walked past’, you know, it was almost that thought in my head,
you know, ‘Should I have stopped to say hello’. And now
obviously I wished I bloody had. But, you know, sort of, so I think,
I, I’m still convinced they were nearer to that side of the road
than that side of the road”.
Quel dommage que le Ministère public ne lui ait pas demandé d'expliciter le signalement qu'elle avait fait dans la nuit, où il n'était nullement question de la rue Francisco Gentil Martins ni de passer à côté de GMC et JW.
4078 “So they were
to your right?”
Reply “Yeah”.
Reply “So, yeah, so
I went past them, erm, up to the, and then walking up to the top of
the road and then, as I got to the top, this person, somebody walked
across the top of the road with, with a child. And obviously at that
point I just thought ‘Oh it’s somebody taking their kid to bed’,
so to speak”.
you have walked up that
hill, was it light or dark by that point?”
the street lights were
definitely on and I think it was, I think it was fairly dark by this
time, because I think that’s why I was sort of thinking ‘Oh lets
send Russell, send Russell back rather than’, well not, but, you
know, I was sort of thinking ‘Oh I can’t be
bothered to go up and check, I’m sure I can persuade Russell to
go’, but then I decided to go myself, so. So I think, I think it
was, I think it was getting, it was dark”.
JW dit qu'il ne faisait pas encore nuit noire.
I think a lot of people
had said we’re eating earlier, so were often going home almost as
we were coming down, so you would see people walking around then,
whereas, as it got later, it did turn into more sort of a ghost town
type, I think, again, which made me thought it was even odder, I
think when I’d been to check other nights at that time I probably
hadn’t seen anybody before, it was more earlier that you saw people
carrying their children around”.
around ten past
nine’ish”.
there’s sort of like a
pavement which is sort of almost like made up of, it’s not cobbles,
but made up of small stones”.
I just thought ‘Oh
I’ll just go and do the check as quick as possible’ and I did
think, I was not struggling to walk in my flip-flips, but, you know,
I wasn’t, I wasn’t striding”.
I can remember sort of
being quite dark, you know, sort of by the pool, the pool lights and
everything being, being quite dark”.
4078 “So your
intention as you are walking up the road was just to check on Ella
and Evie?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah,
just to check on them”.nobody else. Because, well Gerry was there,
so I thought he’d just checked. Matt had checked when he’d, erm,
been to chivvy up Dave and Fi. And we never checked on Dave and Fi
because they had their monitor, which they were quite happy with, so
they didn’t check at all, so”.
4078 “So you were
just trying to get to check your girls as quickly as you could and
get back as quick as you could?”
Reply “For the
starters, yeah. I know people are saying I’ve not been on the
road, but they were there and I wouldn’t know they were there if I
hadn’t walked past, you know, you’ve got to see my frustration in
this, and I know Gerry didn’t see me and Jez didn’t see me, but”.
Il n'était pas très difficile de savoir que Gerald avait bavardé avec JW, il l'a largement mentionné !
you almost went to
acknowledge them but they were so engrossed in conversation?”
Reply “They were,
yeah. I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve met Gerry, but other
people have met Gerry, and when Gerry is talking, it’s bit like I
said earlier, that he is very focussed, he is a very focussed person.
And it doesn’t surprise me he didn’t see me, because if he’s
talking he’s very focussed on what he’s doing at that stage.
Bavardage !
can you remember which
angle you saw them from, which way they were facing?”
Reply “No, I, phew,
again, I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me,
because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have
definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble,
you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’,
Cinq minutes !
you
know, but. So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but.
I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were. But I do,
I stand by the fact I’m sure they were nearer than right over
here”.
The only thing I noticed
a movement was when somebody walked across at the top”.
is definitely a hill
going up there, and just as I got to the top somebody did walk
across. And the thing that really struck me was the, erm, the bare
feet. I thought it’s a person taking their child either back from
the crèche or, you know, just some father carrying their own child,
He just didn’t look quite like a, you know, a tourist, I suppose,
or, so”.
Pourtant un père ramenant son enfant de la crèche, ce ne peut être qu'un touriste !
it just didn’t look
quite like a tourist on holiday or somebody you would imagine on a
MARK WARNER holiday carrying their kid home. As I say, this is all
in hindsight”.
you did see people, I
mean, not that late at night, MAIS LA CRECHE FERMAIT PLUS TARD !
earlier on you’d see them carrying children in pyjamas to the, the
crèche where you can leave them at night and then pick them up
again”.
4078 “Would that fit
in with the direction he had come from?”
Reply “Well, again,
no. Well, it would have been, I mean, at that time, you would of
more expected him to be going the other way, coming back from the
crèche maybe. But he could have gone, if he’d have gone that way
and then cut down, there is a way you could have cut down to the
crèche, going that way, so”.
Gerry was standing
on the bloomin’ road, so I thought he’d, not thought, he’d
just, he had just checked, you know, I thought he’d just checked”.
Reply “But, you
know, it’s just the frustration of not being believed on this,
it’s”.
the best thing that
could happen to me, apart from Madeleine being found, is somebody
coming up and saying ‘That was me’, you know, ‘That was me
walking across there’, because, you know, you know, I don’t want
that to be Madeleine, but, you know, there’s no, but I’m
convinced that was and, you know, people have got to, so I don’t
know what I can do to make them believe that. I’m sorry”.
I really wish I hadn’t
seen this.
Gerry thinks he was
standing somewhere slightly different to where you saw him, well
that, you know, people do see things from different perspectives”.
if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people
watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had
seen”.
And if I was trying to
make this up, don’t you think I would have made damn sure they saw
me. Why on earth would I say I saw them and then they turn round and
say they didn’t see me.
I really want to make
sure that I am believed, because I am not lying on this, I’m really
not, and I just think it’s important.
So this person, he walked
across the road and the things, I think the three things that struck
me was the feet, purely for the reason, and that’s the reason I
spotted them, the clothes were a bit, not what I’d expect and also
they were walking quite, quite, they looked like they were, they
weren’t running but it was a purposeful walk, so they were walking
quite purposefully”.
tell me what he looked
like?”
Reply “You see this
is where now I’m really, I don’t even know whether it’s worth
doing this, because there’s been so much, since then I’ve had
the, when they took me round for the surveillance to look at, and I’m
guessing now it’s MURAT they wanted me to look at and, you know,
all the other bits and bobs, I really don’t know, but I think I’d
prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in
terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the
sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things
were, were murky, I needed to do that sketch that first night, I mean,
they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front
facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is
there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing
that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the
chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?”
“Because he took me in
the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way
back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you
know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the
clothes or a side, a side view’. And he sort of said ‘No, we
don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’.
And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you
know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been,
and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to
get down on paper. But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t
do that, we don’t work in that way’. Which I can understand and,
you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really
pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know,
you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the
way things do’, but”.
“But, I mean, I think,
so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still
stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of
longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each,
almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long
into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or
whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know,
sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of
long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort
of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head. And sort of the
dark, dark clothes and quite billowy, not billowy clothes, but quite
baggy, sort of they seemed, erm, not ill fitting but quite baggy
clothes, like not jeans, but trousers sort of not Chinos but not
Farrahs either, but sort of baggy’ish sort of ill fitting more
than. And they’re the bits that I remember quite vividly sort of”.
4078 “And what
colours?”
Reply “Dark colours,
but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish
jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour,
again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not
a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights
making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it
wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a,
as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d
expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t
think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a
cottony material but baggy”.
4078 “You know the
artist’s impression that you”.
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “That has been
circulated a lot. How happy are you with that?”
Reply “Erm, phew,
reasonably, but, I mean, it was the best I could do after that time,
I mean, it was more, the hair was the one thing on that that I wasn’t
completely happy about but we couldn’t get it any better because it
was the sort of, I almost think that might have been slightly too
long or just, but on the whole I think the actual sort of style and
everything was, was fairly right. I mean, I tried to do that though
from my original description that we wrote down, sort of well
afterwards (inaudible) we tried to get all our thoughts down and I
tried to do it as much as I could from that, because six months on,
as I say, there was, I think the problem is there’d been so much
put into my head since then, like doing the surveillance and, you
know, looking at people on that and things, it was very hard to, to
do it”.
4078 “What about the
height of the man?”
sort of, not six foot but
taller than me but sort of not, but not, I’d say I think it was
sort of about five foot nine, five foot ten. But I think that had
got confused in translation because I don’t know what it was in
metres and they sort of then transferred that into metres from my
statement, so I think it came out actually lower. But I think it was
sort of like five foot nine, five foot ten, as much as I could, so”.
4078 “Okay. And his
build?”
Reply “Medium, well
sort of just normal build. As I say, I think the clothes were quite
baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably
was, but. And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been
out, you know, sort of. So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a
medium’ish build”.
4078 “And you said
earlier you thought he was, I can’t remember what word you used,
walking, you didn’t say briskly, but”.
Reply “Purposefully”.
And also the way he was
carrying was sort of, it’s the way I would pick my children up if I
didn’t want to wake them up, you know, if you’re sort of picking
them up to put them into another bed or something
the only two things that
I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of
thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting
clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things
that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time
and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still
there”.
...
...
I think initially I
couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet. But
the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that
was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember
any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was,
erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this
made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that
convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were,
there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of
design on the bottom of the pyjamas. And I did say it in my first
statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again
and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know
whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the
translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like
this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking
about something at the bottom of the pyjamas. Because, from my own
point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can
think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing
pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting
things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t
think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific
thing to, to mention”.
4078 “And when you
noticed the detail was it in any colour?”
Reply “I don’t, I
didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit
on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I
thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there
was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom,
so”.
4078 “And, overall,
what colour would you say the pyjama bottoms were?”
Reply “Erm, I can’t,
I can’t remember, I mean, I, I can’t remember, well I can’t
remember now, but I think they were sort of whitey but with this,
with this pattern on, but then some pink. That’s, that’s what I
thought at the time. It’s harder because now I know what the
pyjamas were so I can’t”.
What about the child’s
feet then, what can you say about feet, if anything, other than that
they were uncovered?”
Reply “Just that
they were uncovered and it looked like they were, you know, they
seemed to be asleep. there was no, you know, there was no struggle
or any, yeah, they just looked like they were asleep.
did you see the man’s
face?”
Reply “No, no, not,
no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to
give details, give details to”.
4078 “How far away
from you were they at the closest point?”
I think I was sort of
halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to
sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just
further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres nearer
five”.
4078 “So the man and
the child have moved off down the road towards, do you know where
that goes towards?”
Reply “That sort of
goes, that goes up to the road, that’s the main road out, well to
get out of the town or so to speak. You sort of go up here and then
back and that will take you to, to the crèche”.
he was just walking on
that way as I looked and then I’d, I’d sort of went the opposite
way, went the opposite way to carry on the check”.
I can’t remember what
they were or I didn’t notice anything that looked odd, you know, no
car that seemed to be standing out from anything else, so”.
4078 “Go back over
it and have a think if you heard anything from the point where you
have passed Gerry and Jez to seeing this man, what could you hear?”
Reply “Phew, I can’t
think of anything, there was nothing, no, nothing that comes to mind,
there was nothing, as I say, I can’t remember hearing a car or, no,
nothing, I mean, it was quite, apart from, as I say, it was very
quiet really around there”.
4078 “What about the
man and the child, did you hear his footsteps?” ENTENDRE DES PAS ET
NON LES VOIX DE G ET J ???
Reply “No, not that
I can remember”.
I can’t remember who
said ‘Oh time to check again’, I think it actually might have
been Kate that said ‘Oh it’s half nine I’ll go and do a check’.
And I think Matt said at that point, Matt and Russ said ‘Oh we’ll
go, do you want us to look in on’, erm, on, you know, ‘on
Madeleine and Sean and Amelie’. I think Russ had checked earlier
in the week once on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie. Il aurait fait une ronde chez les MO le dimanche, alors que Matthew, malade, était là...
I don’t know, whether
they went first round the back to our apartments, because to get to
check on Sean and Amelie they would go through the pool side door,
whereas, I think Matt and Rachael’s they would go on the roadside
doors to do the checks, so. And that’s when Russell found Evie was
awake so he stayed there with Evie. And then I think Matt checked on
Grace and then went and checked on Madeleine, Sean and Amelie and
then went back to the restaurant”.
4078 “During the
time obviously that they were doing that, you were sat at the table?”
Reply “Yeah, we were
just sat at the table, yeah”.
4078 “And at what
stage in the meal were you at then?”
Reply “Phew, that
must have been just before the mains came I think. Because I think
that might be why they thought they’d go and check, because I think
it was just before the mains came. Because I know when Matt came
back I was sort of halfway through my main meal, because he said ‘Oh
Russell stayed because Evie’s woken up’. And so I think wolfed
down the rest of my meal so I could go back and take over so Russ
could come down and finish his. So I’m guessing it must have just
been before the, before the mains came”.
4078 “And can you
remember what was being spoken about at that stage?”
Reply “Erm, no, I
can’t, I mean, there was, we had a joke the night, earlier, a bit
rude this bit, but we had a joke earlier in the week that, erm, when
Russell had been, stayed back in the room, I was going to go back and
relieve him, so I think we were joking about that ‘Oh Jane’s off
to relieve Russ again’, so that was, I mean, that was the only
thing I can think, that was just a, you know”.
4078 “And because it
will affect your recollection of what happened and things, how much
had you drank that night?”
Reply “The thing is,
that night I probably drunk less than a lot of the others, because
I’d been at the table probably only for, well an hour, forty
minutes at that, you know, not very long at all, by the time we all
sat down and actually ordered the wine it was almost nine o’clock
anyway because everybody was so late, so, you know, I wasn’t, I
hadn’t had that much to drink and because we’d had more to drink
the night before I think we were drinking more slowly anyway.
4078 “And what about
the rest of the group, can you comment on what they were drinking?”
Reply “Erm, no, we
just tended to stick with, because the wine was included, we tended
to stick with just the, the wine that was given, so. I’ll tell
you, the person who drank most of the wine was actually Fiona’s
mum, Dianne was the, was the biggest drinker of the lot of us
actually, which is quite”.
I think the waiter has
took Russell’s, because Russell’s food was there, so they said
‘Oh we’ll take that away’ and they kept that, they said ‘Oh
we’ll take that away and keep that warm’.
Russell sort of, you
know, with, Evie was awake and I think he’d put her in the bath,
because I think she had been, I think when he’d been in she had
actually been sick, so he put her in the bath and he put the sheets
all in the washing machine that was in the apartment. Russell had
sort of said ‘I’ll go and finish my meal and then I’ll come
back’. So the next thing I can sort of really remember is thinking
‘Oh I wonder why he’s not’, you know, I think I was thinking
‘Oh he’s got chatting, he’s not gonna’... I looked out of the
window to check, to see if I could see them still there, and that’s
when the only person I could see still at the table was, erm, Dianne
and everybody else seemed to have, seemed to have gone. Which I
thought was a bit odd, because I thought even if Russell would have
come back, you know, I wouldn’t have expected everybody else to, to
have left at, you know, left at that point, so. So, I mean, that’s
the first time I thought ‘Oh’, you know, ‘What’s happened’,
because I couldn’t see them actually sitting in the, sitting in the
restaurant. I sort of looked out of the roadside door. I think it
was Rachael she said ‘Oh Madeleine’s gone’ or, you know,
something along those lines. And that’s, it was almost
straightaway as she said that I sort of had that, this person sort of
came into my head at that”. the next thing I can remember is seeing
Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s
flat, there’s sort of a passageway and there’s a roof and
there’s a passageway, they came running along there and they were
shouting ‘Madeleine’ and they were like looking in the stairwell
And Fi started running upstairs and that’s when I ran to Fi and
said what I thought, you know, I said ‘I think I’ve seen
somebody’. I didn’t want to say to Kate at that point, which
might sound odd now, you know, ‘Oh why wouldn’t you say straight
away to Kate’, but, you know, the thought of telling the mother of
a child that you might have seen being carried away is, it’s too
horrible to even say. So I just said to Fi, erm, you know, ‘I
think I might have seen somebody a bit odd when I came back to do one
of the checks’. And I don’t know whether she, I mean, she was
just sort of like, I don’t know whether she took it in properly,
but, erm, and then they just carried on, carried on the searching.
They were sort of running around, I mean, I just stayed, erm, me and
Rachael just stayed with, in our own, but we were sort of out in the
alley, in the sort of stairwell outside our rooms, and we were sort
of staying with the kids at that point, so we weren’t actually
involved in any physical running around, searching”.
4078 “Did you stay
sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah,
well Evie was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she
was still awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday
her but sort of just standing outside the, the door of the apartment
mostly, I didn’t really move. Rachael, because Grace was asleep,
she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what was
happening. But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at
the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.
I can’t remember when
Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t
know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was
there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael
went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR,
I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told
anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the
translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the
Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.
4078 “But you told
the Police when they came?”
Reply “Yeah, when
they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR
chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go
and talk to the, the PJ”. pas de trace de cela.
4078 “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”
4078 “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”
Reply “No, they
didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them
where I saw it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here
again, brought me back in the middle of the night from, erm, erm,
from doing the sketch, so this was like the second, the night after,
so this was quite late, it was like three o’clock in the morning,
erm, after coming, well about three o’clock in the morning after
coming back from trying to do the egg with hair sketch, I said to him
then. I said ‘Can I show you where I saw this person’, because
the Press had all gone by that stage and the rest of the day there’d
been obviously quite a lot of Press there, but they’d all gone. So
I actually took him then and said, you know, ‘This is where, this
is where I saw him’, but at that time in the night all the, all
the, you know, I, I honestly can’t remember what I, you know,
exactly what I said, but, but I just said I’d seen somebody and
they just sort of wrote it down and that was, that was it really”.
4078 “Just to
comment on the egg with hair sketch and I know what you are referring
to because I think you have mentioned it to me before, but because of
the lack of software they produced this image of”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “With hair on?”
Reply “With just a
bit of”.
...
...
MARK WARNER sort of got
everybody searching and I can remember some of the Nannies coming to
the door and they took my number, my phone number, my mobile number
and said ‘If we hear anything we’ll give you, we’ll let you
know’ and that was three of the Nannies. I was in a complete
state at that point and saying ‘Oh I think I’ve something’ and
them just saying ‘Oh, don’t worry’ or whatever,
we tried to, tried to go
to bed, I think purely because we knew in the morning we’d be asked
for statements, so it was like (inaudible) sleep at all but it was
like try and, try and get some rest to function in the morning”.
Russell and Matt they
were sort of searching, I don’t know where they searched, but they,
they were actually sort of running around actually looking farther
afield, so didn’t really see them much at all. I can’t remember
when they came back but I remember them coming back and then they
went off again. And then I think they, Russell was there when I
spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me
when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there
as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ. And that was the
first time I’d ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry’s
apartment through the whole week,
That was at three o’clock
in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah”.
when the GNR people came,
so the first lot of Police, the local Police came, erm, I spoke to
them and I think that was through the translator, which was, I think
she’s called Sylvie, she’s the Head of Housekeeping or something,
she was doing the translating at that point. So I’d spoken to the
GNR Police and then when the PJ came, they came to get me to talk to
them to say, to say what, what I’d seen.
4078 “So when you
went into Gerry and Kate’s apartment who else was there?”
Reply “Erm, I think
there was Russ, I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who
was the translator. I can’t remember which, there was some, there
was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table. And there was Gerry
who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.
4078 “And how was
Gerry at that point?”
Reply “Oh he was
just, well obviously, obviously distraught. And I think it was quite
hard for me to be saying at that, you know, looking in his face and
to be explaining what I’d seen, at that point was quite hard
because, you know, Gerry was obviously standing there, I don’t know
whether, and you sort of think ‘Oh God, here’s me, if I’d tried
to stop them this wouldn’t have happened’ sort of thing. So I
think I did feel sort of a bit obviously guilty at that stage even
though I didn’t know whether it was anything, but obviously you
think ‘Oh bloody hell, what if I’, not stopped it happened
potentially”.
The next morning they had
gone up into, erm, Dave and Fi, we didn’t feel we could go up
there, but it was almost like, you know, I don’t know how to put it
into words, but they were so distraught, it was how do you talk to
somebody like that, especially because we don’t know them that
well, so we almost like left Dave and Fi, you know, to cope with the
emotional side of it. and the thought of standing there and talking
to Kate about what I’ve seen is just too horrible to, you know,
think about at that stage.
So we got picked up in
the morning and taken to the Police Station and then they were all
waiting, because I think my interview was the longest that day
4078 “Did you ever
have a reaction from Kate and Gerry about what you had seen and how
you felt about what you had seen?”
in those first few days
we hardly saw them at all really, you know, because they were so,
they were busy obviously with the Press and with everything else, so
I can’t actually remember a specific time that, I think it was, it
was actually a few days later that we actually sat down and sort of I
actually told them directly what I’d seen. I was hoping, you know,
still hoping it didn’t have a significance”.
I think when I realised
the true significance of what I’d seen as well was almost like a
couple of days afterwards when, erm, erm, I was talking to Fi about
the pyjamas, because again it seems madness now why I hadn’t asked
Kate and Gerry before this what the pyjamas were like, but it’s all
sort of rha rha, you know, so I didn’t know what, what Madeleine’s
pyjamas were before this. And I’d actually read in a paper that
they were white, it was in the Telegraph, I think it was the day
afterwards Dianne had bought a Telegraph paper (celui du 5 mai) and
in there it was saying she was wearing plain white pyjamas, so I
think when I read that I almost thought ‘Oh maybe I have got it
wrong’,
we hardly saw them at
all. I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes
when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie
4078 “How long did
you end up staying in Portugal for?”
Reply “It was two
weeks”.
we flew back on, well the
Thursday, it was actually two weeks from the day, from the third, so,
whatever”.
4078 “About the
seventeenth?”
And can you summarise
what you did then, between the third and the seventeenth?”
I can’t remember
exactly what day the surveillance was, but then there was the, the
surveillance when, erm, they took me round the back of the van for
the surveillance day and I think that was probably, maybe the Tuesday
or the Monday of the week before we went back”.
4078 “Okay. And can
you just go on to tell me a bit more about that surveillance?”
Bob SMALL rang, erm, rang
me on my phone and sort of said, well he scared the living daylights
out of me, because rather than saying ‘The Portuguese Police want
to talk to you’, or you know, ‘I want to pick you up to see the
Portuguese Police’, he said ‘I need to pick you up and take you
to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even
Russell’ and all this, so it was sort of a bit and because he’d
said Spanish Police, I thought there was some sort of a strange
conspiracy going on, so it was like, oh, but, I mean, he just got”.
“He just got mixed up.
I didn’t even know who Bob SMALL was at that point and I did tell
Russell where I was going, because I thought ‘I’m not just going
and getting in a car with somebody who is taking me to see the
Spanish Police’. So Russell, we walked, so I arranged to meet Bob
SMALL in a car park at half seven or something at night or whatever
it was, so Russell and I walked up to, erm, to meet Bob SMALL and, by
chance, erm, we walked up, we’d missed the throng of Press that
were at the top of the road, we actually walked up by Robert MURAT’s
house and he came down in his car, in his van at that point, stopped,
and he knew Russ, he’d met Russell earlier in the week, so he
actually jumped out to say ‘Hi’ to Russell and he was showing us,
erm, things in the back of his car as to what he was doing with the,
erm, because they’d set up a stop where people could come and give
their own evidence”.
I was worried sick I was
about to be abducted by the people”.
4078 “By the Spanish
Police?”
Reply “And taken to
the Spanish Police, so I was a bit sort of like, you know. Erm, and
so we stopped to talk, that was probably a couple of minutes, and he
was trying to show us all this stuff, but I was, at that point, I was
thinking ‘Oh shut-up I need to go and meet Bob SMALL’”.
4078 “Do you
remember his car?”
Reply “It was the
green, I remember thinking at the time ‘He’s very keen to show
us’, you know, ‘show us what he was doing’, but, you know, we
thought ‘Oh great’, but. So we then carried on and I met Bob
SMALL and Russell wrote down the number plate of the car just in case
I was taken away. And, erm, then Bob drove me up to where, erm, the
rest of the team were to do the surveillance. Erm, so I went off in
the back of this like refrigerated, well it was pretending to be a
refrigerated, erm, van and took it round to the point on the road and
obviously, in hindsight now, I realise they were probably calling
Robert MURAT to try and get him to walk across, across the top of the
road so that, you know, I could see. But it was a bit odd because
there was a car, where we were parked there was a car that moved just
at that point that he appeared and then two other people walked by,
so I didn’t really, but I didn’t even recognise it as the person
I’d been talking to five minutes before, well, you know, half an
hour before, so. Erm, and then, erm, then went, I think because it
has gone a bit wrong because this car had been there and then tried
to set it up elsewhere, but again I couldn’t really see, I couldn’t
really see that well and, you know, it didn’t look, it didn’t
jog, jog any memories”.
Having seen MURAT then
and obviously in the papers since, could you link the two of those?”
Reply “I don’t
think so. I mean, I don’t, phew, I don’t, I don’t think it,
no, there doesn’t, there’s no, but then the person I see in the
paper doesn’t really look like my recollection of the person I met
on the way to meet Bob SMALL. It’s really annoying because
normally I would have probably taken more notice but I was so worried
about what I was going to do, because I didn’t know at this point
at all, I didn’t really take any notice, but I think the hair was
too short and I remember it being, being long into the neck and not
so. Again, I don’t really, when I saw Robert MURAT outside his
house he looked quite little to me, but then when you see him on the
telly he seems quite bit (big ?) so I can’t, again, I don’t think
the build, the build was right, I don’t”.
4078 “You don’t
feel it was the same person?”
Reply “No, I don’t,
no”.
So Gerry and Jez, as far
as you can say, were near to where it says ‘gate’ on that
building?”
Reply “Yeah but I
think sort of somewhere between the gate and the alley, and the alley
way, sort of within that area.”
4078 “How much of a
bearing do you think the street lighting had on your perception of
colours?”
they weren’t a nice
colour trousers. I really can’t remember, but twilight definitely,
it’d had twilighted to dark and err as I say with the pink part of
the pyjamas I’ve always wondered whether that was a little girl, is
it, are you going to plant into your head the pink pyjamas. It was
the bottom bit of them that gives me the most thought in my own head
that it was Madeleine. So I don’t know, I feel, I thought I saw
pink pyjamas and I thought I could see colours but I don’t know, it
was fairly orange so I don’t know.”
4078 “Okay, so you
think it was pink but you accept that it may not have been, the
colour may have been distorted or it might have been such the power
of suggestion I suppose.”
Reply “That could
have been that for me because the pyjamas I really tried to, it was
in the interview the next day when they really pushed me you know I
think you call it cognitive interview or whatever, really pushed me
to get an idea of you know more details about the person and it was
then that you know sort of the description of the pyjamas was more in
my head than I’d initial, it was mainly the feet as an initial
thing.”
Reply “But err so I
don’t know, I may, that is the one I don’t know maybe that was
power of suggestion but I thought I saw a pattern on the bottom.”
your description from
your first statement…” you said earlier you think that would be
your best description.”
you heard anything.
Specifically, did you hear any car doors?”
you said to me earlier
that you can’t remember hearing anything else.”
no, I didn’t.”
she was on the ground
floor and you walked, you must have walked past her room three, three
times I think we’ve…”
when you walk round the
top of the road you sort of walk round here so you pass, so this is a
car park and you’ve got another wall probably three, three cars
distance from there which is the road, which is the main road, its
hard to describe, err so you walk round here and along this bit of
road here so that’s, that’s, that bit there is a shutter, as it
says.”
“So you walk past here
but within this space here it’s this car park and I think there was
room for at least two cars, if not, there must have been because I
can remember when the dogs were there. There was two of the dog
handling cars.”
“In this space. So you
walk past here and there’s a wall here, there’s another wall like
that.”
when I went into my
apartment I go sort of down here and then walk across this car park
but its, its back here.”
“So you don’t
actually walk directly past that bit at all.”
4078 “Right, so my
understanding was wrong because I was thinking you’d be walking
right out here.”
Reply “No, no not at
all.”
4078 “So there’s
this sort of, barriers between their apartment and where you’re
walking.”
Reply “There’s a
big car park here.”
4078 “So you’d
have to go out of your way to go back to that one?”
Reply “I’d have to
go all the way in, round my bit and then all the way…”
4078 “Back.”
Reply “Along a
little passageway to get back to there.”
4078 “Right,
presumably that’s why Gerry, well you can’t answer for him, but
why Gerry and Kate left their other door open because it was more
accessible to the open that way to check them.”
Reply “Err yeah I
mean they could get round this way but they would have to come in
that way then come back so it was a lot, it was a lot quicker for…”
4078 “And I think, I
can’t remember whether we covered this earlier, did you check
anybody else’s children throughout your holiday?”
Reply “No, I never
went into another apartment, I listened err earlier in the week, I’d
had sort of after I’d been I’d listen outside this window and the
other window but I never, I never actually went into another
apartment.”
4078 “So had the,
had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn’t have
noticed…”
Reply “I wouldn’t
have noticed, no.”
4078 “I know we’ve
covered that they were up to your right and you were going to
acknowledge them but they were so intently involved in their company
that…”
4078 “In such, in
such, they were absorbed in their conversation.”
Reply “Deep
conversation.”
4078 “So you didn’t
acknowledge them in the end, at what distance from them were you when
you passed?”
Reply “Yeah, I don’t
know I think, I mean again it’s hard because I’ve spoken to Gerry
and he thinks it’s further away but I think they were sort of, I’m
trying to…”
4078 “You need
wheels on that don’t you.”
Reply “I mean I
think I sort of walked past, do you know how wide the pavement was, I
walked past, and I think they were sort of, I think sort of almost, I
mean it’s ridiculous they didn’t see me but they were sort of
almost where, they were very, they were close enough for me to say,
to have try and say you know think I could say hello.”
4078 “Without having
to raise your voice?”
Reply “Yeah,
otherwise everything, you know, so I mean even if I was starting from
the other side of that, I’m trying to think how big the path was,
but yeah I was walking up the path and they were, I think they were
very…”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “Very, quite
close.”
4078 “So within a
couple of metres?”
Reply “A couple of
metres, yeah two, yeah, two, three metres I think.”
Le trottoir n'a pas plus de 2 m de large et GMC était dessus
Le trottoir n'a pas plus de 2 m de large et GMC était dessus
4078 “And you said
already that you thought Gerry had his back to you…”
Reply “Yeah I
think…”
4078 “As far as you
can remember?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “And Gez may
have been facing you but you can’t really remember.”
Reply “I can’t
remember which, I’m trying to remember, because he obviously had
the pram I’m trying to remember which way the pram was facing but
I, no I can’t, no.”
4078 “Okay.”
Reply “Again, I
almost think I can remember it pointing down the road but if he was
going back to his apartment it would have been pointing up the road
so I don’t know, but.”
Absolument et comme il y a une pente, il faut exercer une force pour empêcher la poussette de rouler.
Absolument et comme il y a une pente, il faut exercer une force pour empêcher la poussette de rouler.
4078 “Your mind’s
trying to make sense of what you even know.”
Reply “Yeah, no,
yeah so I don’t know.”
4078 “And you,
obviously you can’t remember whether or not Gez saw you?”
Reply “No. As I say
I don’t think they did see because as I went to acknowledge them
and they, they didn’t sort of say hello back or anything.”
4078 “Yeah. I think
I asked you the distance, the time it took to get from the Tapas to
your apartment, which I think you said about a minute and a half.”
Reply “Yeah, yeah a
minute and a half or two minutes I don’t know.”
4078 “And would that
have been the length of time it took you on that occasion when you
passed Gerry and Gez and saw the man? Would that have been about a
minute and a half to get there?”
Reply “Err yeah I
would say, I mean I was walking fairly sharpish as I said so yeah.”
4078 “And what sort
of length of time would it have taken you to get back after you’d
done your check?”
Reply “Err about the
same, you know I didn’t dawdle back or stop to talk to anyone.”
4078 “You didn’t
skid down the hill or anything?”
Reply “No I didn’t,
so, no it was uphill, so.”
4078 “One of the
questions here is why didn’t you, we kind of already have covered
this, why didn’t you warn the MCCANN’S immediately about the man
you saw, assuming that because you didn’t see the relevance of it
at that point?”
Reply “Well I
thought Gerry knew because he was there and, well I didn’t want to
tell Kate within sort of ten minutes of Madeleine being missing
because it just didn’t seem the right thing to say to her to say oh
I’ve just seen somebody walking off with potentially somebody err
and then after that I hardly, as I say I thought Gerry, Gerry was
there when I was talking to the PJ so he would have known from that
and after that I hardly saw them, or I never saw them in a state when
I felt I could you know raise it so to speak.”
Une chose ou l'autre. Ou bien Jane pense (il faut supposer qu'elle a pensé cela quand elle a eu connaissance de la disparition) que Gerald, qui était présent comme elle, a vu le porteur d'enfant comme elle, et alors effectivement il est raisonnable d'attendre que Gerald l'interroge sur les détails dont elle pourrait se souvenir, s'il y attache de l'importancr. Ou bien elle sait que Gerald n'a pu voir le porteur d'enfant et répugne à jouer les oiseaux de mauvais augure "dix minutes" après le constat de la disparition.
Une chose ou l'autre. Ou bien Jane pense (il faut supposer qu'elle a pensé cela quand elle a eu connaissance de la disparition) que Gerald, qui était présent comme elle, a vu le porteur d'enfant comme elle, et alors effectivement il est raisonnable d'attendre que Gerald l'interroge sur les détails dont elle pourrait se souvenir, s'il y attache de l'importancr. Ou bien elle sait que Gerald n'a pu voir le porteur d'enfant et répugne à jouer les oiseaux de mauvais augure "dix minutes" après le constat de la disparition.
after Madeleine’s
disappearance did you see them running at all?”
Reply “I saw them
go, yeah it was quite a few days afterwards
During your stay at the
Ocean Club apartment did you ever leave your doors or windows open?”
I can’t say definitely
we didn’t forget to close the patio door one time when we went out
but we didn’t knowingly leave any, leave any doors or windows
open.”
We made a point and it
was definitely a point of being deadlocked.”
Mais quand Kate a demandé, à table, ce que ses compagnes pensaient de laisser ouvert, aucune ne s'est exprimée.
Mais quand Kate a demandé, à table, ce que ses compagnes pensaient de laisser ouvert, aucune ne s'est exprimée.
4078 “And the
shutters were always down in their room?”
Reply “No I don’t
think we touched the shutters the whole time we were there.”
4078 “I’ll read
the number out to you anyway and see if it makes any sense to you,
the number is 917453319 and it’s”.
4078 “It is a
Portuguese number”.
4078 “But it’s a
number that I think you rang and text her that twenty five to eleven
on the evening of the fourth, so that would have been the Friday
evening”.
Reply “Right.
Texted erm did (inaudible) only thing I can think is, did Dave and Fi
have a Spanish (inaudible), Portuguese mobile (inaudible) I don’t
know”.
4078 “We’ll
perhaps come to that one”.
Reply “Yeah, no I
can’t think what it’d be”.
this is the fourth of
May statement, which is the one that has a description in, bear with
me just one, one last part. This part about Matthew”.
4078 “I need to
check the other statement you made as well, there’s a mention when
we were speaking earlier that Matthew had made a comment about, oh
sorry, I’ve found it, I’ve found it now. It depends on which way
you read this as to what it means, now I need to clarify with you way
it was intended”?
4078 Do you remember if
Matthew made a comment when he came back to the Tapas Bar about being
only able to see the twins”?
Reply “No, this was
afterwards, this was after we discussed it that night, so yeah, no it
wasn’t then, he hadn’t made it then, it was after she’d gone
missing”.
you know your first
statement that you did”.
4078 “The, the man
that you saw was an olive skinned brunette male and looking between
thirty five to forty years old, slim build, about 1.7 metres tall, he
had very dark, thick short hair, which went down to the back of his
neck, as seen from behind, he was wearing beige/golden coloured linen
type trousers with a duffel coat but not too thick. The shoes were
black in colour and classic in style, he was walking in a rush, he
was carrying a child lying on both of his arms in front of his chest,
by the way he was dressed, I thought he was a tourist because he was
too wrapped up”.
Contradictoire avec ce qu'elle a dit deux fois plus haut (ou lost in transcription ?)
Contradictoire avec ce qu'elle a dit deux fois plus haut (ou lost in transcription ?)
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “How does that
seem to you now”?
Reply “Yeah seems,
only I’m not sure I said duffel coat, don’t think I would have
said, I think the duffel, I think I’d said it was gathered, it may
be a duffel coat but sort of the blousy-ness, it was all gathered
round his bottom for the want of a better, but yeah I think, yeah the
shoes I mean I think a lot was made of the shoes but that was almost
like a, that was an add on at the end, that was to, I think this
might be what the shoes were like, it wasn’t a definite, the shoes
were like this, this is when I was pushed to add more and more
information to it, it was more, that’s what the shoes were like, so
I didn’t study the shoes and I think that I took that more from the
point it wasn’t tra, it didn’t seem to be trainer type shoes,
that’s, but erm, but yeah the rest is fairly, the golden was the
mustard, because I was trying to point out colours in the room to him
cos I couldn’t, in the translation we couldn’t get over what sort
of colour”.
hat sort of yellowy tinge
to it, rather than gold, I wouldn’t say it was, it wasn’t so
gold, it’s too strong a word for it”.
she’s unsure but seems
to remember how you seen some design on the pyjamas, which could have
been flowers but you’re not sure”?
Reply “Mmm, you see
I said earlier, I didn’t think the turn up bit had gone into this
description but I do remember very clearly, the Translator, during my
second interview, when I said in the second interview about the turn
ups, she sort of said yes I can remember you saying that .
4078 “So it was
said, it just might not have been in it”?
Reply “It was
definitely said
Now in relation to the
male she had seen, she’d only spoken with Gerald McCANN but not in
detail and with the Police”?
Reply “Well I’d
spoken with other people within the group but hadn’t spoken to Kate
about it earlier and Gerry I’d only spoken to cos he was there when
I was giving the”.
I’ve never seen
Madeleine in pyjamas at home and or anywhere so”.
I mean it’s more
relevant to everybody else than to me, it’s probably some of the
Robert MURAT bits, in terms of erm Rachel, Fi and Russ and into, erm
it was sort of how that came about and how they came to give their
statements on that, I don’t know whether it’s a good time to talk
about that”?
I did the surveillance
and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about
whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s
Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have
you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d
done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant
that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days
actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that
I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards. So Rachel
came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I
think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else
said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang
Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for
them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this
relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way
to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think
it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they
didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”.
I’m not trying to push
anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it
was him that I saw”.
Reply “But I just
thought it was”.
when I got back, I didn’t
even tell Russell what I’d done cos I took very seriously what the
Police said in terms of not you know, not telling anybody”.
I’d just really like
to say to the Portuguese Police you know, I think there’s been a
lot said but from a, you know we’re not a bunch of swingers that
went out there for a swinging holiday, I can’t think of anything to
be worse to be honest, they’ve obviously got this idea of us and
it’s just completely, completely wrong, there’s no way they are
involved in any shape or form, you know we saw their reaction on the
night, we saw their reaction afterwards, we see their reaction now,
they’re not involved and the thing is, there’s somebody out there
you know, Madeleine if she’s dead or alive whatever you know, maybe
it is too late to find her but there’s somebody out there that’s
done this and it’s not Kate and Gerry, it’s not us, you know they
can do it again and none of us are involved and you know, I just
don’t know what else we can do to make them believe us and we were
normal people that made a really stupid decision because we were
lulled into a false sense of security from previous holidays where
baby listening was offered so I don’t know”.
Have you ever visited
Kate and Gerry at their home address”?
Reply “Yes a couple
of times, we went to Madeleine’s birthday the year before, so it
would be her third birth, yeah her third birthday and I think we’ve
probably been there maybe one other time”.
4078 “And the last
time you saw Madeleine was on the afternoon you (inaudible)”?
Reply “Yeah we were
playing tennis yeah”.
...
4078 “How many times
did you meet Kate and Gerry”? let’s assume it means afterwards”?
Reply “Erm I didn’t
actually see them until they got back in the UK, I’m trying to
think, the first time was, we obviously had conversation, phone
conversations and texts but I don’t think I saw them until, I think
it might have been beginning of November before we actually, no it
must have been before then, I know I saw them when I did the, I saw
Gerry when I did the sketch, you know when the sketch came out, I saw
Gerry then but I didn’t see Kate, I think the first time I saw Kate
was when I went up to do the (inaudible), so that was November time,
actually to see them face to face”.
4078 “Now do
you think they were showing normal behaviour for parents who
have lost a child”?
Reply “Yeah I do because I think and knowing their personalities, especially Gerry, I mean Gerry had to throw himself completely into you know, he used the campaign and everything else as his coping mechanism to get him through on a day to day basis and some people might think that’s not normal but knowing Gerry and you know he is a very, he’s a very decisive, very, he always has, you know he makes a decision and then that’s the right you know, the way to go, so no I think they were, and Kate’s obviously just a mess, so I think it’s completely, knowing them, I think it’s completely how I would expect them to, to react”.
Reply “Yeah I do because I think and knowing their personalities, especially Gerry, I mean Gerry had to throw himself completely into you know, he used the campaign and everything else as his coping mechanism to get him through on a day to day basis and some people might think that’s not normal but knowing Gerry and you know he is a very, he’s a very decisive, very, he always has, you know he makes a decision and then that’s the right you know, the way to go, so no I think they were, and Kate’s obviously just a mess, so I think it’s completely, knowing them, I think it’s completely how I would expect them to, to react”.
4078 “Okay.
During the time you were on holiday, did you notice situation
where Kate and Gerry were talking to any unknown person”?
Reply “Erm no, the only people, Gerry’s very, I mean Gerry’s the sort of person that gets somewhere and he knows everybody straight away, so he’s very sociable, so I think he’d probably know a lot more people than the rest of the group through the, through his tennis as well
Reply “Erm no, the only people, Gerry’s very, I mean Gerry’s the sort of person that gets somewhere and he knows everybody straight away, so he’s very sociable, so I think he’d probably know a lot more people than the rest of the group through the, through his tennis as well
Duration of Interview: 11 minutes
4078 “Do you remember which, do you remember which door Russell left your apartment by when he left after you’d taken over the care of Evie”?
I’m fairly sure it was
the road side one, I would say the road side one but I can’t
remember”.
did you lock the doors
behind him”?
if you just shut the
doors they locked anyway, erm so nobody could have got, if it was the
road side door, if you shut it, it locked but you could further dead
lock it, I don’t think I would have dead locked it”.
4078 “But you would
have needed the key to have got back in anyway”?
Reply “Yes”.
4078 “Or you would
have had to have let him in”?
Reply “I would have
had to let him in, or he would need a key to get back in yeah”.
Pas besoin de clef pour ouvrir de l'intérieur.
Pas besoin de clef pour ouvrir de l'intérieur.
4078 “Okay, okay, do
you remember when you told Russell that man carrying the child”?
Reply “It was when
he’d, he came back from one of the searches, I remember two of
them came back to the apartment and it was, it was then, straight
away”.
4078 “And when you
told Russell, did you tell him with a matter of urgency, as a matter
of urgency, with an urgency to the way you were telling him, or was
it just an oh by the way I saw this”?
Reply “Oh no, it was
a definite oh effing blah you know, I think it was a definite, oh I
think I’ve seen something you know, sort of a yeah”.
before or after you told
Fiona”?
I think it was
afterwards cos I think Fiona, I think Fiona was fairly soon after I’d
seen Rachael, so I would, I would say it was after Fiona
Rachael was the first
person I told”.
Donc Rachael, Fiona, Russell et Matt or David.
then I think when Russell and Matt or Russell and Dave, whoever it was that came back, I then, then told them”.
then I think when Russell and Matt or Russell and Dave, whoever it was that came back, I then, then told them”.
Do you know if Rachael
rang the BBC that night, or early in the morning, or there’s some
mention of an email from David PAYNE to the BBC, do you have any
knowledge of that”?
I think I remember
discussions about I think Gerry might have asked Dave to ring Sky, I
don’t know whether it was that way, or no to email, there was some
erm talk of, I can remember talk of emailing Sky, I don’t know
what, where it came from and I think that was mainly Dave,, I think
me and Russell are more erm wary of the media and we were like oh is
it the right thing to do, and in terms of Rachael, I know she has a
friend who’s married to someone at the BBC so, but I don’t know
whether, I can’t, I’m not sure if she actually did it, I think it
was the next day, I don’t think it was during the night”.
Là elle se trompe grossièrement.
Là elle se trompe grossièrement.
the final thing that I
need to ask you is in relation to attending Portugal for the
reconstruction, what are your thoughts on that”?
Reply “Erm it’s
hard, I mean I think in an ideal world I’d be on the plane tomorrow
if I thought it would help erm find, find Madeleine but some great
concerns about the media and the, how the media will react to it, how
that it will view it, you know will it just be a, another chance to
have a dig at us, rather than actually focussing, focussing it back
onto the, finding out what happened, or where Madeleine is, so I
think that is a big concern. Also it’s too late in the day, this
should have been done, you know this was requested in the first
couple of weeks we were there, this should have been done then, a
year down the line, I would like to know exactly what hoping to gain
for it because okay you might be able to see different escape routes
that you think of but through you know DNA evidence or anything to
back it up at this stage and it’s almost like and from totally
personal level, the thought of going and sitting there and going
through it, it’s just hideous, so I think I really need to
understand that it has to be us that does it and why, I can
understand that obviously we’re the best people to do it but you
know, in terms of damage from a selfish point of view to us, other
people from the media, psychologically whatever, I really need to
know that there is really good reasons and that they really think
there’s gonna be stuff comes out of it that can be used or you know
what they are hoping to get out of it and it’s not, and if I’m
being, going to my completely cynical side you know, is it, there’s
not just a way to get us back to Portugal, so you know we, not that
they can do whatever they want with us but you know getting us back
to there so that they can slap an arguido status on us or you know,
all of that sort of thing you know”.
Jane, malgré tant de dégoût, est retournée à PdL avec GMC pour filmer une reconstrufiction.
Jane, malgré tant de dégoût, est retournée à PdL avec GMC pour filmer une reconstrufiction.
I say in an ideal world
I’d get on the plane tomorrow but I really need to understand that
it’s worth doing and it’s not just a tick box exercise to be able
to close the case or anything like that you know, cos it, I think
they have to understand the affect you know that it could, the media
you know, from a media point of view and a psychological point of
view, the thought of walking up that road again and just going
through it all, would just be hideous, so you know I think”.
I don’t know what extra
information I can give so far down the line or if I do give any extra
information and retrace the steps, you know what, I suppose we might,
I wouldn’t, if you know if I think oh they look more like this, is
it accurate to this far down the line, you know I think that is the”.
“It’s almost like a
what, what benefit is gonna come out of it in that way and that’s
not me being, I’m not being, cos the last thing is, you know I want
to do everything we can to help but we’ve got to, because of the
way the case has gone, we’ve got to sit, look at it in terms of
damage limitation to us and our families you know down the line and
we don’t want to give the chance, (inaudible) completely new set of
you know media hype”.
4078 “Not unless
it’s going to produce something worthwhile”?
Reply “Produce
something worth, worthwhile and I mean I’m not a Policeman, I’m
not, I don’t know what is hoping you know, what they are hoping to
get, to get from it, the only thing I can see at the moment that
they’re hoping to get from it, is to find a hole in our story and
from our point of view, we know there isn’t one of those, or you
know, that’s not gonna help find Madeleine, so I need to understand
exactly what they think is gonna help find Madeleine by us going
back”.
I can see at the moment,
obviously the damage to us being more than the, than the benefit to
Madeleine”.
Duration of Interview: 8 minutes
just to clarify some
points in relation to a sequence of events that was drawn up, it is a
timeline, in effect, of the events that happened on Thursday May the
third two thousand and seven. Firstly, I mean, I don’t know what
format you may have seen this in before”.
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “How did this
come about?”
Reply “Erm, I can’t
remember when we decided, but I think it was a couple of days
afterwards, we were just, we were all coming up with different bits
of what had happened when and, et cetera, and we were just worried
that over time that would, you know, we would lose, we wouldn’t be
able to remember what was, what happened when, so we just thought
we’d put it down on paper. I think different people had put like
little bits down on bits of paper for their own memory, so we just
thought we’d get together, put it all down and just, I suppose in a
way, do a bit of our own, not investigative work, but, you know, put
it together and see if anything stood out to us really”.
4078 “And who did
that?”
Reply “I think it
was Dave’s initial idea or I think, I don’t know whether, well I
think Dave sort of said and then we borrowed a computer from the
tennis coach, just so that we had something to, to write it down on.
But we all did it together, we sort of all sat, we sat together and
did, did it”.
4078 “Were there any
sticking points?”
Reply “Phew, oh, I
can’t remember now, erm, nothing major, nothing major that I can
think at all, I think there was probably, you know, times, timings,
there was probably ‘Oh I thought it was a bit later’ or ‘I
thought it was a bit earlier’, but nothing, in terms of the actual
sort of sequence of events, there was nothing that (inaudible) many
times”.
4078 “What I am
trying to cover is, if anybody would look at this cynically”.
Reply “Within the
group? Oh no”.
4078 “Externally”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “If people were
to view this cynically and they may argue that”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “That everyone
has been pressured into conforming to stating these times and
sticking to these times. Do you know what I am driving at?”
Reply “No, no, I
mean, that wasn’t, and I think with everything that has happened
since, we do think whether doing this was a bad idea, because it does
like we were all getting our story straight, but it was done in
completely good faith, just purely because we knew we’d forget or
we were forgetting, you know, between us we were forgetting things
that had happened, so we just thought it would be a help to, to put
it down on paper. And we did it and gave it to the Police, so it
wasn’t something we did without, you know, to keep to ourselves, we
sort of did it and then gave it to the Police straight away when we’d
done it, so, no, there was no”.
S'il ne s'était agi que d'assurer leurs mémoires respectives, pourquoi donner ce document à la police ? Pour était-ce si important, mais faire une reconstitution, pas question ? En plus ils ne l'ont pas donné à la police "straight away", mais au consulat.
S'il ne s'était agi que d'assurer leurs mémoires respectives, pourquoi donner ce document à la police ? Pour était-ce si important, mais faire une reconstitution, pas question ? En plus ils ne l'ont pas donné à la police "straight away", mais au consulat.
4078 “So the notes,
for doing it, was purely with good intention and they weren’t, as I
say, you know, if you were to view it cynically, they are not a kind
of aide memoir of people trying to remember?”
Reply “No, it was
purely because we thought we’d forget ourselves and we thought it
would help the Police to have our collective thoughts, thoughts on
it”.
Mais pas leur collective présence !
Mais pas leur collective présence !
4078 “The times on
it, I will go through them, but they are fairly consistent with what
you have said on your interviews anyway”.
Reply “Right”.
4078 “Twenty, I
don’t like saying twenty thirty, ‘Half past eight standard
booking for meal at Tapas Restaurant. Twenty five to nine Gerry and
Kate arrive. Twenty to nine Jane TANNER arrives, followed shortly by
Matthew OLDFIELD and Rachael MAMPILLY. Quarter to nine Russell
arrives. Five to nine Matthew OLDFIELD returns to check the ground
floor flats and then also sees David and Fiona and Dianne’”.
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “’Three
minutes to nine Matthew OLDFIELD listens outside all ground floor
flats. Nine o’clock Matthew OLDFIELD returns to the table.
Starters were ordered. Five past nine Gerry McCANN returns to his
flat’. It describes how he found the door, et cetera, on that
visit. ‘Quarter past nine Jane TANNER leaves the table and sees
Gerry talking to a fellow resident, the two were standing just up the
hill from the gate towards Rua da Silva Road’. I don’t know if I
am saying that properly. You didn’t speak to Gerry as you passed.
And then as you continued up the hill you saw a man. Then you have
got the description of the man here”.
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Which is the
same as the description in your first statement. I will go through
it again anyway just in case there is any discrepancies”.
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “’A man aged
thirty-five to forty, one point seven metres tall with slim build, a
good head of dark glossy hair with a possible flick of hair to the
right’”.
Reply “Yeah, I think
that’s because I just saw a lot of, a lot of hair”.
4078 “’The hair
was longer at the back, not clippered or shaven. The central and the
left side of the face were not seen. Full length trousers, casual in
material, hanging without creases, the colour was possibly a brown or
mustard, they were not jeans. A long sleeved jacket, fastened at the
front possibly by a zipper, it had a gathered lower hem and was also
possibly brownish in colour. The shoes may have been semi formal
brogue. Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be
ascertained. He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable
objects. He was only carrying a child with the head against the left
upper chest away from Jane TANNER and the feet to the right, i.e.
cradling the child like a baby. He appeared to be walking in a rush
to get somewhere. He was not someone Jane TANNER recognised from the
week. He was not typically dressed for a tourist. His clothing did
not seem to be of UK origin and they had rather been purchased in
Portugal’”.
Reply “Umm, yeah,
not UK origin, yeah”.
4078 “And the
description of the child, ‘A Caucasian child. About the ages of
three to four. Was seen to lie motionless, limp in the man’s arms,
with her sleeping or possibly drugged. She didn’t seem to be
wrapped up well for the time of night, wearing only pyjamas. The
trousers were light coloured with a floral element, possibly with
turn-ups. The top was not seen well enough, although there was
thought to be another colour involved, possibly pink. She was not
wearing shoes. Twenty past nine Jane TANNER then returns to the
restaurant by which time Gerry had also returned. Twenty-five past
nine, after the starters, Matthew OLDFIELD and’ who is ‘RJO’?”
Reply “Russell.
Russell, it’s Russell James O’BRIEN. So that’s Russell”.
4078 “Right. Okay.
‘Go back to the apartments via the car park entrance to check all
the flats’. Half past nine Russell remains in your apartment and
Matthew goes on to check the other children before coming back.
‘Twenty-five to ten Matthew returns to the restaurant table’.
Twenty to ten you return to take over Evie’s care’?”
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “’Quarter to
ten’, which you can’t comment on, ‘Russell returns to the
table’. And ‘Five to ten’, again you can’t comment on that
because you were still in the apartment, ‘RMO’?”
Reply “Rachael. No,
‘RMO’? Rachael, yeah”.
4078 “’RMO last
time at table’?”
Reply “Rachael
OLDFIELD, yeah”.
4078 (inaudible) And
‘Ten o’clock Kate leaves the table to check on her children’.
So, as I said, there is nothing different there to what you have
already said”.
Reply “No, and, I
mean, this was done after all of our initial statements as well, so,
I mean, it wasn’t sort of a get it all down on paper so we’re
ready for the initial statements, it was done, I think, two or three
days after that, so that was purely because we thought we were going
to forget for ourselves”.
4078 “Yeah, I can
understand that.
Le récit de JT ne
s'adosse à aucun autre témoignage, bien que la plupart certifient
que JT a fait une ronde juste après le départ de GMC. Mais, comme
elle n'a pas fait allusion à un en revenant à table, il n'y a qu'elle
pour certifier qu'elle l'a vu à ce moment-là. Tout le monde répète
comme si c'était la vérité, mais ce n'est qu'une histoire racontée
par JT.
