Grâce à la liberté dans les communications, des groupes d’hommes de même nature pourront se réunir et fonder des communautés. Les nations seront dépassées.
Friedrich Nietzsche (Fragments posthumes XIII-883)

08 - AVR 8 - Audition rogatoire Jane TB




Leicestershire Constabulary  

08.04.08 

4078 “And you’ve been given a letter from us outlining the objectives of this interview but if at any time you want to stop and ask a question that’s fine.”

4078 “It’s just a chat really.”

4078 “Obviously I’m going to try and licit as much information out of you as we can.”

4078 “And likewise I know you’re going to try and remember as much as you can.”

4078 “We’ve already discussed the fact that you wanted to refresh your memory, well you might want to refresh your memory.”

4078 “By looking at the statement that you gave previously.”

4078 “That’s fine but we’ve agreed before the interview that you’re going to do as much as you can prior to doing that.

4078 “And then when you get to the stage that you feel you want to do that just say so.”

À toutes ces phrases, Jane répond "ouais".
4078 “Your time and co-operation is obviously appreciated but I just want to ask you to be patient with me because no doubt we’ll be covering things that you’ve gone over time and time again.”

“Yeah err well we’re very good friends with David and Fiona, and Matt and Rachael

Ella’s, Ella was three and Evie was, she’s September so one, she would have been one, one in May.”

we know Kate and Gerry, we’d sort of socialised with them but not as well probably as the other, as the other two couples.”

Russell err had lived, well he was a student with both Matt and Dave and err and then with Dave and Fiona when they were living together, so, and I mean I’ve known Russell for twelve, I think it’s twelve years now so you know sort of when Russell was living with David and Fiona I was obviously there a lot as well

I actually did first meet them but it was around about the time that Ella and Madeleine were born because Russell was working with Gerry at the Royal and I can remember, I honestly can’t remember the first time I actually met them exactly Fi knew Kate well at that point because they were both doing anaesthetics together at that stage.”

with Kate and Gerry we probably saw them two or three times a year but Dave and Fi we probably saw every week, if not more often because we just lived down the road, and Matt and Rachael they moved away, they were in London.

4078 “Err I think I’ve read somewhere that, was it Ella had a foot operation?”

Reply “Yes, the week before. It didn’t go…”

Reply “Err, five D.”

The interview ceased at 1018 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
Duration of Interview: 61 minutes
Dave and Fi’s apartment was on the second floor because theirs was the biggest, theirs was sort of the biggest apartment ...
Il n'était pas plus grand que celui des MC.

Evie probably go to the kids club in the morning but then stay with us, stay with us in the afternoon and that morning would give, well me a break you know to do, to do something else...

that was a tennis lesson every morning, I think it was at, I think it was nine o’ clock but it might have been nine thirty but it was every morning until the end of the week.”

I don’t know whether Matt was feeling ill by that point but Matt was actually ill that first night

that first Sunday Ella didn’t go to the kids club straight away purely because it’s the first day there and obviously because she had been poorly the week before... I know Ella didn’t go, so I presume we stayed with Ella or either Russell or myself you know stayed with Ella by the pool because there’s like a park area by the pool, so.”

4078 “Do you remember what eating arrangements you had that day?”

Reply “We went, that was the first day that we went to the, the Tapas bar.”

4078 “And when was it decided that you’d be going there?”

We went to the Millennium for breakfast yeah. I think that first morning on the Sunday everybody, the whole group went that first, well I’m not sure if Dave and Fi did but I know Kate and Gerry went that first morning to the Millennium Restaurant and I think they found it quite a, a trail to get because they’d got three kids, the ones that were two, they were carrying the twins and dragging Madeleine so I think then after that they decided they’d have breakfast in their room after their first day because it was a bit of a, not an ordeal, but it was a bit of a trek to get back.”

I alerted somebody to maybe what we were doing because I actually went down, before we went down I went down with my monitor to check if it was working because Dave and Fi had a monitor which was quite a good one, a very high spec monitor, whereas ours wasn’t such high spec so I was worried that it wouldn’t work in the Tapas bar.”

it worked but not, I wasn’t completely confident in, totally confident in it. So as I say looking back on it now you think oh, I did that, could that have actually shown somebody what we were doing, you know, me standing there like an idiot with my bloody monitor, you know, that sort of, that has crossed my mind since but I think we decided before we went, one of the attractions of a Mark Warner holiday was the baby listening service that they normally offer.”

“And we did know that they didn’t offer it, offer it there and we sort of thought, at that point we thought we can either do it between ourselves and one night one couple you know stay back and then do the baby listening or, but then when we found where we were and the proximity to the restaurant we just sort of thought if we are checking and doing the baby listening as is done in other Mark Warner resorts we should be okay, which it obviously wasn’t, but that was, that was the thought process behind it.” 
Quand même très curieux puisqu’il chacun vérifiait seulement ses mômes.

you feel guilty sometimes about…”

Reply “Of course.”

4078 “What happened.”

we were lulled into a false sense of security because this baby listening service is offered in other places and yeah you look at it now knowing what happened and you’d think ah yes you know we were probably reckless but it didn’t feel like that because this is a service that is offered, you know, marketed as a service in other resorts and we felt we were doing more than is maybe offered there.”
Ils auraient dû se demander précisément pourquoi ce service n'était pas offert à PDL. Ils se comportent comme des enfants, c'est la faute à tout le monde sauf à eux. 
Pour ne rien dire évidemment que dans le listening service de MW, les gens ferment leurs appartements à clef.

4078 “And your judgement at the time you considered that you’d be able to cover the, you checking on the children from the proximity of the restaurant?”

Reply “Yeah, yeah.”

4078 “And you felt okay with what…”

Reply “I think with that plus the monitor that we had I think we just thought yes it’s fine and I think you know your own children, again, we were proved wrong because Evie did wake up but they tend to, they sleep well, if they wake up it tends to be in the middle of the night, not early on, you know. And things like that you just, we were just weighing it up and it seemed a reasonable risk, well I did think of it as a reasonable risk then it just, we thought it would be fine.”

it was something that is offered elsewhere and we just thought, you don’t imagine in a million years that, I mean we were probably more worried about them waking up and thinking where are we.”
Au moins elle dit ça, ce à quoi tout parent penserait. Même les MC...
Ella knows to shut down the monitor if, because she’s used them at home you know, so, and you just think, I don’t know, at that point I was, it never crossed my mind that somebody could take them, that wasn’t even a concern.

And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”

If we were to say poolside and roadside, would that make it clearer which entrance did you use mostly?”

Reply “For checking or for anything?”

4078 “For anything. Was there a check, that you’d use mostly?”

Reply “Err the back, the roadside entrance because you couldn’t actually get in to the err the poolside entrance but there was no key to get in from the outside so you could only get in there if it was unlocked. Loquet

So the only time we’d have probably used the back, the poolside entrance is during the day if somebody else was in there already.”

4078 “Okay, so when you went out for your meal…”

Reply “Yeah.”

4078 “In the evening, the poolside door was always locked in your apartment.”

Reply “Yeah, yeah.”

4078 “So when you did your treks you had to go in through the roadside?”

Reply “Back, yeah through the back door.”

4078 “Was that a longer journey?”

Reply “Yeah.”

4078 “Having not been there I’m just imagining.”

Reply “Yeah, yeah it is longer.”

4078 “And how long would it take you to walk from the Tapas to your apartment?

Reply “Err I don’t know, a minute and a half, yeah about a minute and a half.”

4078 “Not long at all?”

Reply “Yeah, yeah, no it’s plenty, I mean no longer than I’d say two, no I don’t even think it would be two minutes, a minute.”

4078 “And did you leave your roadside door locked or was it unlocked?”

Reply “Yes, yeah well we made, as I said we made sure that was because you could dead lock it as well and that was one of our concerns was Ella waking up and wandering, I mean like I say we didn’t think she would but that was probably our, you know so she couldn’t get out the actual apartment, that was err so we did make sure that was dead locked every night.”

4078 “Was your apartment the same layout as the MCCANN’S or was it slightly different?”
Err I think it was the same more or less.
Il semble qu'il était plus petit.

We never opened those shutters at all the whole time we were there because it was great because it made the room really dark so it was good for them sleeping.”

And we didn’t use that room in the day so I don’t think we ever, well I certainly never even, never opened them or shut them.”

4078 “What was the weather like when you were there?”

it wasn’t, that’s one reason why we didn’t open the shutters to open the window or anything in that room, it wasn’t actually really hot at all, it was actually quite cloudy in the days and at night it was actually quite chilly.”

it was really, really cold,

4078 “And you knew that they would be safe within the apartment because they wouldn’t be able to wander out.”

I’m aware that later on in the group people started to take it in turns to check other people’s children.”

I think the first night I think we were all checking our own but as we became more comfortable with it, it was if one person was going back they would listen, listen you know at the door as well so, I don’t think, it wasn’t a, I don’t think it was a specific decision right now we all stopped, we’ll start checking on each other’s children, it was just a you know, you’re going back, you know, have a, have a listen as well.”

we did try to do it every half an hour and I’d say out of everybody Kate and Gerry were the, the most strict on that, they were, we almost took them as the lead at times for when we, you know when we checked because they were definitely, you know were definitely every half an hour whereas we were the same, we probably did it at course, you know we probably do it because we tend to get to there at different times but err but you know I think it was more or less, more or less every, every half an hour.”
Ce n'est ni la première ni la dernière fois que Jane essaie de donner des MC l'image d'un couple-modèle.

we often tended to have lunch in err Dave and Fi’s room, again because it was a bigger room and we just tended to congregate there.”

4078 “Did everybody do that?”

Reply “They did but apart from Kate and Gerry often had it in their own, their own apartment, err I don’t know whether they ever came, I don’t think they ever, I think they tended to have lunch, lunch in their own apartment but their, Sean and Amelie tended to go back to the kids club in the afternoon whereas err the rest of us, because they were younger they didn’t, so.”

4078 “What’s, what, how do they compare in age to Evie?”

Reply “Err they were three in February and Evie’s three in September so, a bit of maths, they’re about six, seven months older.”

4078 “And how long would the tea process last?”

Reply “Probably about forty five minutes, half an hour, forty five minutes.”

after they’d had their tea we always tend to take them to the play area, we’d sort of go to the play area and have a run around, you know, after tea and that’s when everybody would probably be, you know, we’d all get together after the day.”

what did you think of them at that stage?”

Reply “Yeah they were nice, normal people, yeah you know, sort of, that’s the thing, I mean Gerry, the sort of person Gerry is, I could never see us being best buddies because he’s very, we’re very different. I think he’s very err he’s quite forthright (tranchant) and so I don’t think we’d ever be best friends but there’s no problem there or anything like that you know, I feel bad saying that because it makes it sound like there is a problem but there’s not but you know it’s not, whereas Kate I was really, I was getting to know Kate quite well but yeah I think Gerry is sort of like more of a man’s man maybe.”

I think he’s, we’re probably very different, I think he’s err yeah I’m trying to put it in to words because if I say he, he doesn’t intimidate me in any shape or form but you know what I mean I think he’s probably the person out of the whole group that I would feel least comfortable with, you know, just on, just chatting because we probably haven’t got as much in common.”

With Kate it was fine yeah. I say it was nice to have the opportunity to get to know, get to know Kate and yeah she’s lovely, so yeah we sort of, I think we were you know forming more of a, more of a friendship.”

you’ve already said that you were in the habit of going to David and Fiona’s for lunch.”

Did you go into any of the other apartments?”

We went in to Matt and Rachael’s apartment but I hadn’t been in to Kate and Gerry’s apartment until, well the night Madeleine went missing.

Tuesday I think there might have been a quiz that night in the Tapas bar but I’m not sure,

about your baby monitor?”did you take that with you every night for the duration of the holiday?”

Reply “Yes, yeah.”

there was a wall behind me so I’d put it on there “I wasn’t convinced it was really always you know totally working.”

I can’t even think I ever saw anybody when I walked back from the check but no I never saw anybody at all apart from (inaudible).”

it seems really odd to go on holiday and you don’t go to the beach, but by this stage no we hadn’t, well I’d been but we hadn’t taken the children down to the beach.”

It’ll be Wednesday the second of May. What can you remember about the Wednesday?”

there was one night when Russell didn’t come to dinner and I think it was the Wednesday but it could have been the Tuesday because Evie was sick. I’d say it would be Tuesday, which is why I think it was the quiz night because Russell wasn’t there when it was the quiz night.”

there was two quiz nights. There was one quiz night where they just brought round a sheet of paper with pictures on or something and it was sort of lasted about five, ten minutes, but then there was a second quiz night which was a couple of rounds and that was, that was when Russell wasn’t there because we were thinking it would be quite good if he was there because he’s got a memory for silly facts.”

“The mini quiz was before the main quiz.”

4078 “So your contact with Kate was limited to your tennis lessons and then to sort of just sitting socially..”

Reply “Yeah.”

Actually that morning was the morning Ella and Madeleine had the tennis lesson I think on the Wednesday. You’ve got the picture of…”
La photo aux balles de tennis ?
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “Err so after the, would it be the Wednesday, after our tennis lesson they all came down so we did stay and watch them for a bit, so that makes me wonder if it was actually the sailing
 (sailing des adultesthat day.
the sailing started at half eleven so between half ten and half eleven that day we would have stood and, we stood and watched, I stood with Kate and probably Rachael we watched them having their, the kids having their tennis lesson.

“Do you remember if you went to David and Fiona’s, was it every day you went there, or?”

Reply “Err I think, it was every day except I think on the Thursday we actually ate in, Matt and Rachael came to our apartment, it was just us and Matt and Rachael. I can’t remember why we didn’t go up to Dave and Fi’s but I don’t know whether one of their kids had gone to bed already or something but I think every day up to that point we had eaten in their apartment, but on the Thursday it was just Matt and Rachael came, came, came to ours.
Qu'est-ce qui pourrait avoir modifié la routine de ce jeudi ?

4078 “Okay. So on the Wednesday then you’re likely to have been at David and Fiona’s?”

Reply “I think so. I’m not sure but I think so.”

4078 “Right. Do you remember what happened in the afternoon on the Wednesday?”

Reply “Err no, the afternoons are harder in a way because there was no set activities to jog, jog my memory,

4078 “At the Tapas bar, what can you remember about that?”

Reply “Well I’d say out of all the nights this was the one we stayed the latest the other nights we’d been probably you know going quite err early and out of all the nights this was probably the one where we did have more to drink than the other nights. it was probably the longer night that we stayed in the Tapas bar.”

Reply “I think it was definitely the Tuesday that he was, he wasn’t there.”

Reply “Err but Rachael wasn’t there that night because she’d got the bug that Matt had had earlier in the week so she, she wasn’t there.”On the Wednesday night.”

4078 “And what time do you think you stayed there until that night?”

Reply “I think it was midnight that night

I don’t know, we didn’t go back to check so that was probably the longest that the check hadn’t been, hadn’t been done you know. Err because I don’t, you know, I mean well one of us I don’t think went back while we were in the bar area but we were probably in there for about, it was probably about forty minutes.”

I’m trying to think if by that point we were checking on each other’s…”

I listened at Matt and Rachael’s, you know at some point we listened at Matt and Rachael’s window and down there but err no I can’t remember, but by that stage I think we were listening but we didn’t, I don’t know whether people actually went in to, to be honest nobody, if we hadn’t gone nobody could have gone in to ours because they’d need the key so when people did check ours they did, they did just listen, so.”

you and Russell didn’t take tennis equipment.”

Reply “No, no.”

4078 “Or sailing equipment.”

I don’t know whether Kate and Gerry took, they might have taken racquets because I think they’d always, they’d always been planning to do the tennis, especially Gerry. Gerry had always been planning to do the tennis so I don’t know whether he took a tennis racquet or not,

take what was available, yeah.”

“I don’t know about Kate, I think Gerry might have done but again, I don’t know, I’m just surmising just because they’re keener tennis players.”

You can’t picture seeing him or her at any stage with a full bag of tennis equipment or?”

Reply “No.” Très catégorique !



Date of Interview: 08/04/08 
Duration of Interview: 45 minutes

.

4078 “Madeleine, how much of Madeleine did you see?”

Reply “Not that much really because only really because she didn’t come to breakfast, so we saw the other children at breakfast and their lunch, but because they tended to have breakfast and lunch separately, the only time I really saw her was at, erm, after high tea when we were playing in the play area, was the main times that I probably saw her during the week”.

4078 “And how would you describe Madeleine?”

Reply “Very, she was very lively, a very lively, happy, a happy little girl really. Because, probably a bit of, we were almost a bit worried how Ella and Madeleine would get on, because Ella’s quite shy and sensitive and Madeleine’s very, erm, I don’t know whether you can call a child vivacious, but, you know, sort of very, erm, outgoing sociable, ouverte and. But, I mean, they did, they got on and they had a whale of a time. But, yeah, very, very lively, chatty, a chatty little girl. I mean, to be honest, I know Madeleine probably less well than I know Kate and Gerry, because often, with Kate and Gerry, we saw them, it was like at fortieth birthday parties and that sort of thing. So, Madeleine herself, I wouldn’t say as, I didn’t know her as a little girl, whereas, you know, the other children, Millie and the other ones, you know, I saw very regularly”.

4078 “So your impressions of Madeleine is that she is confident, happy?”

Reply “Umm”.

4078 “Intelligent?”

Reply “Yeah, very, yeah, you know, very”.

4078 “And is there anything about her that would make her stand out from the rest of the children in that group?

Reply “I think just the fact she is very outgoing,extravertie, you know. As I say, Ella, in her nature, is a bit more, you know, quiet and, erm, a bit more probably reserved. Well, again, I don’t know whether you’d call a child reserved, but more, you know, not quite so”.

4078 “Hangs back and sees what is going on?”

Reply “Yeah, she’s, yeah, whereas, I think Madeleine would be, she would always be in the centre, anything that was going on she would be, I don’t mean to say the ring-leader, but she would be at the centre of it, so”. Une meneuse ?

she wasn’t, no, bratty or sort of, I can’t remember the word I’m trying to look for, precocious”.

she was just very, and she was obviously, you know, they were enjoying themselves, they were running around screaming, you know, sort of chasing them round the play area, you know. That’s my main memory of Madeleine from the holiday, is in the play area, you know, we were sort of chasing them around and, you know, just being, just running around, quite happy”.

Thursday morning I didn’t go for breakfast at Millennium, I just went straight to the, straight to the tennis lesson. So I think Russell took, Russell took Ella and Evie up to the Millennium

on the Thursday another group of children came down for their tennis lesson and that’s when Russell and this other person was there with the video camera.

4078 “Not Madeleine?”

Reply “Not Madeleine and Ella, no, another group. it was the same age group but it was the other half of the group that were having their tennis lesson”.

Russell, me and Evie walked down to the beach. I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’. we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”. 
Mais ni Fiona ni David ne disent qu'ils ont vu Madeleine et Ella faire de la voile.
Thursday was probably the first day I think the sun had more come out in the day”.

And I think that day was the day we had lunch in our apartment with just Matt and Rachael and not Dave and Fi.

Kate and Gerry brought the kids, all the kids down to the play area to, they would have their lunch before they took them back to the Kids Club, and I think that was about two, quarter past two’ish, and I can remember Madeleine shouting things to us on the tennis court, you know, and I can remember Gerry sort of going ‘Oh good shot’ or whatever. And I think that would have been the last time that I personally, you know, I personally saw Madeleine. Then they took the twins up to the Kids Club and I presume Madeleine back to the, to the other one, because then Kate and Gerry, I think we saw them, I can’t remember for exactly, but I think we saw them when we come back, because they’d booked a, erm, a private tennis lesson, just the two of them, that afternoon, and I think, I don’t, I can’t remember whether we saw them coming back before me and Rachael finished or whether we saw them doing that when we then went down to the beach, but I remember seeing Kate and Gerry coming back to have their, have their private tennis lesson. So anyway me and Rachael probably knocked up for about any hour maybe or probably a bit less than an hour, then went back and then, then Matt and Russ, when we got back, Matt and Russ went down to the beach and I think they took a boat out, erm, Matt fell off the boat and nearly lost Matt off the side of the boat and we thought that would be the drama of the day, but. So, yeah, then they went down to their and then we’d arranged to actually take all the kids down to the beach with Dave and Fi and Dianne that afternoon, so then when Evie and Grace woke up, we all well followed and all went down to the beach as a group, but not with, but Kate and Gerry didn’t come then because they’d booked this private, you know, this private lesson”.

So everybody was there apart from Gerry and Kate and Madeleine and the twins?”

Reply “And Ella. Ella was still in the Kids Club at this point as well”.

we played with the kids for probably about an hour and a half on the beach. And then Russell went to get, pick Ella up from the Kids Club and he brought her back down, back down to the beach”.

I think it was about five. It would have been before, because they used to walk them up for tea, so because we were going to give them all tea on the beach we didn’t, we made sure it was before they left, but it would have probably have been about, just before five I think”.

4078 “And how long did it take you to go from the beach to the Kids Club?”

Reply “Erm, phew, five minutes”.

And then we walked up to, I think it’s Café Paris, Parisio or something, it’s the café that’s on the front, and we just had, had some drinks there and gave the kids some tea, so we got them some tea, because obviously they weren’t having it in the, the Kids, they didn’t have the provided tea

Every night there was social tennis actually, so that’s probably what happened after tea on most nights, we’d go and do an hour of tennis and sort of mix and match between us all, so the kids would be playing in the, erm, the play area, and, you know, we’d sort of like, somebody will stay and play with the kids and then we’d swap in and out if it was. But like they had, one night they had a ladies’ night, but Thursday night was actually the men’s night of tennis and I think somebody, basically made, tried to make ourselves as awkward as possible on this holiday, I think, because somebody had asked, because there weren’t many people there and most of the people playing tennis were in our group except a few others, they sort of said ‘Oh could it be just slightly’, it was either slightly earlier or slightly later, so I think it was actually, I think normally it started at half six but we’d asked ‘Could the social tennis start at six’, so that they then gave us time to get the kids into bed afterwards”.

I can remember saying to Russell and Matt and everything, it was about quarter past six, I said ‘Oh you’ve got to go to the men’s night tennis because they’ve changed the times for us and now you’re not bloody going’, you know, that sort of, it was that sort of thing. So I think at about quarter past six they, they all went up to, erm, to the men’s tennis”. I saw, we saw Kate running when we were at the Café Parisio or whatever it was, it was before we’d gone to the café that we saw Kate running”.

4078 “Right. So it was before teatime?”

Reply “Before, yeah. So it would have probably been before five, it would have been sort of, either before, definitely before half past five I would have said we’d seen her, yeah”.

4078 “And she was on her own?”

yeah, the, sorry, Russell, Matt and Dave went up to, back up to the complex, for want of a better word, to play tennis, because we sort of said ‘Well’”.

4078 “You’ve got to?”

Reply “’You’ve got to because’. I think Russell and I are probably more sort of laid back and just go with the flow a bit, but some of the people on the holiday were quite sort of ‘Oh we’ll ask, we’ll get this’, you know, a bit like booking the Tapas Restaurant every night, I don’t think it would ever have crossed Russell and my mind to try and get a block booking, but, erm, you know, I think they sort of”.

4078 “Once somebody has you feel obliged to go along with it?”

Reply “Well, I think, yeah, I mean, and we actually did have a conversation, it’s one of those ‘What ifs’ as well, I can remember on the morning of the, Thursday morning by the tennis, at the tennis, somebody in our tennis group had tried to book the Tapas and they couldn’t get in because it was already full. And I can remember thinking at that point, and I just felt, you know, ‘Good’, because they were bloomin’ awkward by booking it out. And they were sort of saying well it’s a bit ridiculous that they couldn’t have got in because they’d booked, they’d tried to book in, you know, they’d been there at nine o’clock to book in and they still couldn’t get in. So, we did, at that point, I can remember having this conversation was ‘Oh shall we go somewhere different’, but it never happened, but. And Kate was, I think Kate was there then, I can’t remember who else, but we did actually say ‘Oh shall we, shall we go somewhere different’. And I think almost at that point we had considered it, but I think the problem was the kids were so tired after having such full days, I think it was more ‘Well it’s worked every other night’. But I know definitely from my point of view I felt quite bad that we were taking this, you know, this block booking every night and it was affecting other people using it”.
Gerald fait référence à un changement de lieu pour dîner dans le documentaire de Emma Loach diffusé le 30 avril 2008. Il est possible, ce ne serait pas la première fois, que Jane ait délibérément fait allusion à un projet qui n'a, de fait, ni queue ni tête. Après avoir obtenu, autorité du nombre, le passe-droit d'une table réserée au Tapas pour toute la semaine, il aurait au minimum été mal venu de décommander quelques heures avant, interdisant à ceux qui n'étaient pas parvenus à avoir une table de changer leur programme de substitution.

4078 “What were the other options then for eating, was there a good option close by?”

in terms of ones that you wouldn’t have to pay extra for, it was the Millennium,our kids as they are growing up, but we tend to drag our kids with us more, you know, they have never really had a certain bedtime as such, I think”.

we followed up probably about quarter of an hour later with all the kids and we went to the play area by the tennis courts and had a, you know, we probably stayed there for about half an hour or so. At that point, I’m not, I can’t say how long that was, about half an hour”.

Gerry was there playing tennis”.

we stayed there for a bit and then took the children back and got them, you know, bathed and blah blah and got them ready for bed, Russell came back about quarter to eight. it was probably about quarter past eight by the time we actually put them, them in, them into bed. And then I went down to the restaurant just after half eight. There’s another, another thing that I was feeling bad about was, erm, we’d got this block booking for half past eight, but because Dave and Fi are so rubbish at getting anywhere, again they’re always late, it was edging back every night, so we were sort of getting to the place of sort of quarter to nine, nine o’clock, when everybody was getting there and, as I said earlier, a lot of people were going earlier, you know, earlier in the evening, so I was very conscious we were sort of keeping all the waiters there late, you know, not later, but later than they probably would, would normally be there, so. So I think by that stage we knew what the menu was, so I’d got Russell’s order but he stayed, because the children had only been asleep for quarter of an hour, he stayed back in the room for a bit longer, just to check that they were definitely asleep before, before he came, came to join, you know, everybody else”.

“Kate and Gerry were there already and they were talking to two people that Gerry played tennis with

it was just one big round table there Kate and Gerry were standing up, talking to them”.

soon after I’d got down we sat down at our table next it was, erm, Matt and Rachael And then Russell came down, probably about quarter to’ish, I think it was, probably sort of five or ten minutes after, after me. And then it was getting quite late again and Dave, Fi and Dianne were nowhere to be seen, so Matt actually, I think it had got to the point when it was like ‘Oh Matt go and’ and Matt said he’d go back and chivvy them along. I think Fi had actually been for a run which is why it had taken, why she was, they were taking longer. Erm, yeah, so Matt went back, erm, but he actually met them coming down. But I think because he was up he thought while he was up he’d go and have a listen just to check, you know, there was no noise from Grace. I think he must have actually been a bit longer, I think we’d actually been there for about quarter of an hour before Dave and Fi, you know, all of us had been there for about ten or fifteen minutes before they actually appeared, so”.

I was sitting next to Kate on one side and I think it was Rachael, I think it was Rachael the other side. Erm, yeah, I think it was, erm, so it was Kate, me, Rachael and then I think, erm, I’m trying to think where everybody else was. Erm, I think Dianne was next to Rachael, here. I really can’t, I can’t really, I can’t picture exactly, but I know, I know I was next to Kate, that’s in my head, and I think it was Rachael the other side, the other side of me. And I think Russell might have been the other side of Kate or Matt was next”.

I was almost facing the bar area, so I was sort of, yeah, I had my, to where the apartments was, I was sort of perpendicular”.

I think in some ways it had been the nicest day because the weather had been nicer, we’d all had the chance, you know, we’d taken the kids to the beach, we were all saying, you know, it was probably, it’s ironic, but it had been the best day of the holiday so far because, you know, we’d been able to do something with the kids and blah blah, so”.

Matt I know he listened at our window. And I don’t know whether he went in to see Grace, but I know he listened at Grace. And I don’t know whether he listened at Madeleine’s window at that point,

I specifically remember saying ‘It’s been the best day of the holiday so far
Une phrase que Kate a mis dans la bouche de MMC.

it was actually quite, quite cold”.





Date of Interview: 08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit
Duration of Interview: 80 minutes

you said that you had spoken with Russell over lunch and you now realise your plan is wrong?”

Russell said he was actually sitting between, erm, Rachael and Dianne. So I think, I’ve got Dianne there. So Russell was there. And I think Dave, I think Dave might have been there and Fiona there”.

4078 “Okay. So it goes then from you, anti-clockwise if you like, it is you and Kate, Matthew?”

“Fiona”.David PAYNE?”Gerry. Dianne. Russell?”and then Rachael”.and then back to you?”
Ce n'est pas encore ça.

I’m not sure when, when abouts in the meal, but I did have a conversation with Kate about, she’d said that she’d, Madeleine had said something strange about ‘Where were you last night when I woke up’. I think she said ‘When Sean and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it was when two of them woke up. So I think Kate was more worried that night, you know, whether leaving them was the, the right thing, or so to speak, so. 
Selon Fiona Kate était inquiète d'avoir laissé la porte-fenêtre ouverte pour permettre à MMC de sortir et d'aller à la recherche de ses parents.
Gerry went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal. 
Personne n'a trouvé qu'il s'était absenté plus longtemps qu'habituellement. Kate n'a de cesse de pointer cela. Bizarre, surtout que Jane n'est pas encore partie... et elle est censée être partie 5 minutes après Gerald...
Erm, and then I think we thought ‘Oh well the starters are going to appear any minute’. I sort of walked up the road. And then Gerry was there, he was talking to Jez WILKINS in the road, well they were sort of, as I went by. So I think I thought then ‘Oh that’s why Jez’, not Jez, ‘That’s why Gerry has been, you know, that’s why he’s longer than we thought’”.

How long after Gerry had gone was it before you went to do your check?”

it must have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone, before I actually left there had been the conversations about him being waylaid. sort of five or ten minutes,

4078 “It is a long time ago, I know, we have already discussed the feasibility of this. But describe, not just that you saw Gerry up the road, describe what route you take and what you can see and what you can hear and whether it is light or dark and any other noises that you are conscious of”.

Reply I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, I know, I think Gerry thinks he was somewhere different to where I think they were standing,
Comment sait-elle cela ?
but I was fairly sure, as I walked up the road, they were standing, one of them was in the road and one of them was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought it was on the side of the road that I was walking, but I know Gerry thinks they were the other side. But I thought they were closer by, because as I walked by, I almost did go to sort of acknowledge them and I thought at that point ‘Oh they were cha cha cha’ and I did think, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t know whether they’d seen me or not, but I did actually go to acknowledge them and I think if they’d have been that far away I don’t know whether I would have sort of almost gone to say hello, but. But they were talking quite (inaudible), so I just carried on, you know, up, up the road. I mean, I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway. I think sort of”.

I think one of them was in the road and I think, I thought it was Jez in the road because he had the pram. And I don’t know which, I can’t remember which way he was facing. No, I mean, I think I remember in my statement I did say, but I can’t remember now which way he was facing. And I thought Gerry was almost like on the edge of the pavement or just, just in the road sort of, but definitely sort of by that, sort of more by this alleyway. I don’t think they were by the apartment gate, I thought they were sort of a bit further down, down the road than that”.

I don’t think they were right outside the gate for sure. I don’t, I’m not sure, but they were definitely, I definitely can’t remember them being right over here, purely because I know I did go to acknowledge them and I don’t think if they were over there I would have thought to acknowledge them. Because it was almost like ‘Oh did I ignore them as I walked past’, you know, it was almost that thought in my head, you know, ‘Should I have stopped to say hello’. And now obviously I wished I bloody had. But, you know, sort of, so I think, I, I’m still convinced they were nearer to that side of the road than that side of the road”.
Quel dommage que le Ministère public ne lui ait pas demandé d'expliciter le signalement qu'elle avait fait dans la nuit, où il n'était nullement question de la rue Francisco Gentil Martins ni de passer à côté de GMC et JW.

4078 “So they were to your right?”

Reply “Yeah”.

Reply “So, yeah, so I went past them, erm, up to the, and then walking up to the top of the road and then, as I got to the top, this person, somebody walked across the top of the road with, with a child. And obviously at that point I just thought ‘Oh it’s somebody taking their kid to bed’, so to speak”.

you have walked up that hill, was it light or dark by that point?”

the street lights were definitely on and I think it was, I think it was fairly dark by this time, because I think that’s why I was sort of thinking ‘Oh lets send Russell, send Russell back rather than’, well not, but, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Oh I can’t be bothered to go up and check, I’m sure I can persuade Russell to go’, but then I decided to go myself, so. So I think, I think it was, I think it was getting, it was dark”.
JW dit qu'il ne faisait pas encore nuit noire.

I think a lot of people had said we’re eating earlier, so were often going home almost as we were coming down, so you would see people walking around then, whereas, as it got later, it did turn into more sort of a ghost town type, I think, again, which made me thought it was even odder, I think when I’d been to check other nights at that time I probably hadn’t seen anybody before, it was more earlier that you saw people carrying their children around”.

around ten past nine’ish”.

there’s sort of like a pavement which is sort of almost like made up of, it’s not cobbles, but made up of small stones”.

I just thought ‘Oh I’ll just go and do the check as quick as possible’ and I did think, I was not struggling to walk in my flip-flips, but, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t striding”.

I can remember sort of being quite dark, you know, sort of by the pool, the pool lights and everything being, being quite dark”.

4078 “So your intention as you are walking up the road was just to check on Ella and Evie?”

Reply “Yeah, yeah, just to check on them”.nobody else. Because, well Gerry was there, so I thought he’d just checked. Matt had checked when he’d, erm, been to chivvy up Dave and Fi. And we never checked on Dave and Fi because they had their monitor, which they were quite happy with, so they didn’t check at all, so”.

4078 “So you were just trying to get to check your girls as quickly as you could and get back as quick as you could?”

Reply “For the starters, yeah. I know people are saying I’ve not been on the road, but they were there and I wouldn’t know they were there if I hadn’t walked past, you know, you’ve got to see my frustration in this, and I know Gerry didn’t see me and Jez didn’t see me, but”.
Il n'était pas très difficile de savoir que Gerald avait bavardé avec JW, il l'a largement mentionné !

you almost went to acknowledge them but they were so engrossed in conversation?”

Reply “They were, yeah. I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve met Gerry, but other people have met Gerry, and when Gerry is talking, it’s bit like I said earlier, that he is very focussed, he is a very focussed person. And it doesn’t surprise me he didn’t see me, because if he’s talking he’s very focussed on what he’s doing at that stage. 
Bavardage !

can you remember which angle you saw them from, which way they were facing?”

Reply “No, I, phew, again, I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me, because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble, you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’, 
Cinq minutes !
you know, but. So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but. I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were. But I do, I stand by the fact I’m sure they were nearer than right over here”.

The only thing I noticed a movement was when somebody walked across at the top”.

is definitely a hill going up there, and just as I got to the top somebody did walk across. And the thing that really struck me was the, erm, the bare feet. I thought it’s a person taking their child either back from the crèche or, you know, just some father carrying their own child, He just didn’t look quite like a, you know, a tourist, I suppose, or, so”.
Pourtant un père ramenant son enfant de la crèche, ce ne peut être qu'un touriste !

it just didn’t look quite like a tourist on holiday or somebody you would imagine on a MARK WARNER holiday carrying their kid home. As I say, this is all in hindsight”.

you did see people, I mean, not that late at night, MAIS LA CRECHE FERMAIT PLUS TARD ! earlier on you’d see them carrying children in pyjamas to the, the crèche where you can leave them at night and then pick them up again”.

4078 “Would that fit in with the direction he had come from?

Reply “Well, again, no. Well, it would have been, I mean, at that time, you would of more expected him to be going the other way, coming back from the crèche maybe. But he could have gone, if he’d have gone that way and then cut down, there is a way you could have cut down to the crèche, going that way, so”.


Gerry was standing on the bloomin’ road, so I thought he’d, not thought, he’d just, he had just checked, you know, I thought he’d just checked”.



Reply “But, you know, it’s just the frustration of not being believed on this, it’s”.

the best thing that could happen to me, apart from Madeleine being found, is somebody coming up and saying ‘That was me’, you know, ‘That was me walking across there’, because, you know, you know, I don’t want that to be Madeleine, but, you know, there’s no, but I’m convinced that was and, you know, people have got to, so I don’t know what I can do to make them believe that. I’m sorry”.

I really wish I hadn’t seen this.

Gerry thinks he was standing somewhere slightly different to where you saw him, well that, you know, people do see things from different perspectives”. if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.

And if I was trying to make this up, don’t you think I would have made damn sure they saw me. Why on earth would I say I saw them and then they turn round and say they didn’t see me.

I really want to make sure that I am believed, because I am not lying on this, I’m really not, and I just think it’s important.

So this person, he walked across the road and the things, I think the three things that struck me was the feet, purely for the reason, and that’s the reason I spotted them, the clothes were a bit, not what I’d expect and also they were walking quite, quite, they looked like they were, they weren’t running but it was a purposeful walk, so they were walking quite purposefully”.

tell me what he looked like?”

Reply “You see this is where now I’m really, I don’t even know whether it’s worth doing this, because there’s been so much, since then I’ve had the, when they took me round for the surveillance to look at, and I’m guessing now it’s MURAT they wanted me to look at and, you know, all the other bits and bobs, I really don’t know, but I think I’d prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things were, were murky, I needed to do that sketch that first night, I mean, they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?”

“Because he took me in the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the clothes or a side, a side view’. And he sort of said ‘No, we don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’. And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been, and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to get down on paper. But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t do that, we don’t work in that way’. Which I can understand and, you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know, you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the way things do’, but”.

“But, I mean, I think, so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know, sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head. And sort of the dark, dark clothes and quite billowy, not billowy clothes, but quite baggy, sort of they seemed, erm, not ill fitting but quite baggy clothes, like not jeans, but trousers sort of not Chinos but not Farrahs either, but sort of baggy’ish sort of ill fitting more than. And they’re the bits that I remember quite vividly sort of”.

4078 “And what colours?”

Reply “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”.

4078 “You know the artist’s impression that you”.

Reply “Umm”.

4078 “That has been circulated a lot. How happy are you with that?”

Reply “Erm, phew, reasonably, but, I mean, it was the best I could do after that time, I mean, it was more, the hair was the one thing on that that I wasn’t completely happy about but we couldn’t get it any better because it was the sort of, I almost think that might have been slightly too long or just, but on the whole I think the actual sort of style and everything was, was fairly right. I mean, I tried to do that though from my original description that we wrote down, sort of well afterwards (inaudible) we tried to get all our thoughts down and I tried to do it as much as I could from that, because six months on, as I say, there was, I think the problem is there’d been so much put into my head since then, like doing the surveillance and, you know, looking at people on that and things, it was very hard to, to do it”.

4078 “What about the height of the man?”

sort of, not six foot but taller than me but sort of not, but not, I’d say I think it was sort of about five foot nine, five foot ten. But I think that had got confused in translation because I don’t know what it was in metres and they sort of then transferred that into metres from my statement, so I think it came out actually lower. But I think it was sort of like five foot nine, five foot ten, as much as I could, so”.

4078 “Okay. And his build?”

Reply “Medium, well sort of just normal build. As I say, I think the clothes were quite baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably was, but. And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been out, you know, sort of. So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a medium’ish build”.

4078 “And you said earlier you thought he was, I can’t remember what word you used, walking, you didn’t say briskly, but”.

Reply “Purposefully”.

And also the way he was carrying was sort of, it’s the way I would pick my children up if I didn’t want to wake them up, you know, if you’re sort of picking them up to put them into another bed or something

the only two things that I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”.
...

I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet. But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas. Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”.

4078 “And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?”

Reply “I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”.

4078 “And, overall, what colour would you say the pyjama bottoms were?”

Reply “Erm, I can’t, I can’t remember, I mean, I, I can’t remember, well I can’t remember now, but I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink. That’s, that’s what I thought at the time. It’s harder because now I know what the pyjamas were so I can’t”.

What about the child’s feet then, what can you say about feet, if anything, other than that they were uncovered?”

Reply “Just that they were uncovered and it looked like they were, you know, they seemed to be asleep. there was no, you know, there was no struggle or any, yeah, they just looked like they were asleep.

did you see the man’s face?”

Reply “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”.

4078 “How far away from you were they at the closest point?”

I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres nearer five”.

4078 “So the man and the child have moved off down the road towards, do you know where that goes towards?”

Reply “That sort of goes, that goes up to the road, that’s the main road out, well to get out of the town or so to speak. You sort of go up here and then back and that will take you to, to the crèche”.

he was just walking on that way as I looked and then I’d, I’d sort of went the opposite way, went the opposite way to carry on the check”.

I can’t remember what they were or I didn’t notice anything that looked odd, you know, no car that seemed to be standing out from anything else, so”.

4078 “Go back over it and have a think if you heard anything from the point where you have passed Gerry and Jez to seeing this man, what could you hear?”

Reply “Phew, I can’t think of anything, there was nothing, no, nothing that comes to mind, there was nothing, as I say, I can’t remember hearing a car or, no, nothing, I mean, it was quite, apart from, as I say, it was very quiet really around there”.

4078 “What about the man and the child, did you hear his footsteps?” ENTENDRE DES PAS ET NON LES VOIX DE G ET J ???

Reply “No, not that I can remember”.

I can’t remember who said ‘Oh time to check again’, I think it actually might have been Kate that said ‘Oh it’s half nine I’ll go and do a check’. And I think Matt said at that point, Matt and Russ said ‘Oh we’ll go, do you want us to look in on’, erm, on, you know, ‘on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie’. I think Russ had checked earlier in the week once on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie. Il aurait fait une ronde chez les MO le dimanche, alors que Matthew, malade, était là...

I don’t know, whether they went first round the back to our apartments, because to get to check on Sean and Amelie they would go through the pool side door, whereas, I think Matt and Rachael’s they would go on the roadside doors to do the checks, so. And that’s when Russell found Evie was awake so he stayed there with Evie. And then I think Matt checked on Grace and then went and checked on Madeleine, Sean and Amelie and then went back to the restaurant”.

4078 “During the time obviously that they were doing that, you were sat at the table?”

Reply “Yeah, we were just sat at the table, yeah”.

4078 “And at what stage in the meal were you at then?”

Reply “Phew, that must have been just before the mains came I think. Because I think that might be why they thought they’d go and check, because I think it was just before the mains came. Because I know when Matt came back I was sort of halfway through my main meal, because he said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s woken up’. And so I think wolfed down the rest of my meal so I could go back and take over so Russ could come down and finish his. So I’m guessing it must have just been before the, before the mains came”.

4078 “And can you remember what was being spoken about at that stage?”

Reply “Erm, no, I can’t, I mean, there was, we had a joke the night, earlier, a bit rude this bit, but we had a joke earlier in the week that, erm, when Russell had been, stayed back in the room, I was going to go back and relieve him, so I think we were joking about that ‘Oh Jane’s off to relieve Russ again’, so that was, I mean, that was the only thing I can think, that was just a, you know”.

4078 “And because it will affect your recollection of what happened and things, how much had you drank that night?”

Reply “The thing is, that night I probably drunk less than a lot of the others, because I’d been at the table probably only for, well an hour, forty minutes at that, you know, not very long at all, by the time we all sat down and actually ordered the wine it was almost nine o’clock anyway because everybody was so late, so, you know, I wasn’t, I hadn’t had that much to drink and because we’d had more to drink the night before I think we were drinking more slowly anyway.

4078 “And what about the rest of the group, can you comment on what they were drinking?”

Reply “Erm, no, we just tended to stick with, because the wine was included, we tended to stick with just the, the wine that was given, so. I’ll tell you, the person who drank most of the wine was actually Fiona’s mum, Dianne was the, was the biggest drinker of the lot of us actually, which is quite”.

I think the waiter has took Russell’s, because Russell’s food was there, so they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away’ and they kept that, they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away and keep that warm’.

Russell sort of, you know, with, Evie was awake and I think he’d put her in the bath, because I think she had been, I think when he’d been in she had actually been sick, so he put her in the bath and he put the sheets all in the washing machine that was in the apartment. Russell had sort of said ‘I’ll go and finish my meal and then I’ll come back’. So the next thing I can sort of really remember is thinking ‘Oh I wonder why he’s not’, you know, I think I was thinking ‘Oh he’s got chatting, he’s not gonna’... I looked out of the window to check, to see if I could see them still there, and that’s when the only person I could see still at the table was, erm, Dianne and everybody else seemed to have, seemed to have gone. Which I thought was a bit odd, because I thought even if Russell would have come back, you know, I wouldn’t have expected everybody else to, to have left at, you know, left at that point, so. So, I mean, that’s the first time I thought ‘Oh’, you know, ‘What’s happened’, because I couldn’t see them actually sitting in the, sitting in the restaurant. I sort of looked out of the roadside door. I think it was Rachael she said ‘Oh Madeleine’s gone’ or, you know, something along those lines. And that’s, it was almost straightaway as she said that I sort of had that, this person sort of came into my head at that”. the next thing I can remember is seeing Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s flat, there’s sort of a passageway and there’s a roof and there’s a passageway, they came running along there and they were shouting ‘Madeleine’ and they were like looking in the stairwell And Fi started running upstairs and that’s when I ran to Fi and said what I thought, you know, I said ‘I think I’ve seen somebody’. I didn’t want to say to Kate at that point, which might sound odd now, you know, ‘Oh why wouldn’t you say straight away to Kate’, but, you know, the thought of telling the mother of a child that you might have seen being carried away is, it’s too horrible to even say. So I just said to Fi, erm, you know, ‘I think I might have seen somebody a bit odd when I came back to do one of the checks’. And I don’t know whether she, I mean, she was just sort of like, I don’t know whether she took it in properly, but, erm, and then they just carried on, carried on the searching. They were sort of running around, I mean, I just stayed, erm, me and Rachael just stayed with, in our own, but we were sort of out in the alley, in the sort of stairwell outside our rooms, and we were sort of staying with the kids at that point, so we weren’t actually involved in any physical running around, searching”.

4078 “Did you stay sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”

Reply “Yeah, yeah, well Evie was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she was still awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday her but sort of just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move. Rachael, because Grace was asleep, she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what was happening. But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.

I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.

4078 “But you told the Police when they came?”

Reply “Yeah, when they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go and talk to the, the PJ”.   pas de trace de cela. 
4078 “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”

Reply “No, they didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them where I saw it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here again, brought me back in the middle of the night from, erm, erm, from doing the sketch, so this was like the second, the night after, so this was quite late, it was like three o’clock in the morning, erm, after coming, well about three o’clock in the morning after coming back from trying to do the egg with hair sketch, I said to him then. I said ‘Can I show you where I saw this person’, because the Press had all gone by that stage and the rest of the day there’d been obviously quite a lot of Press there, but they’d all gone. So I actually took him then and said, you know, ‘This is where, this is where I saw him’, but at that time in the night all the, all the, you know, I, I honestly can’t remember what I, you know, exactly what I said, but, but I just said I’d seen somebody and they just sort of wrote it down and that was, that was it really”.

4078 “Just to comment on the egg with hair sketch and I know what you are referring to because I think you have mentioned it to me before, but because of the lack of software they produced this image of”.

Reply “Yeah”.

4078 “With hair on?”

Reply “With just a bit of”.
...

MARK WARNER sort of got everybody searching and I can remember some of the Nannies coming to the door and they took my number, my phone number, my mobile number and said ‘If we hear anything we’ll give you, we’ll let you know’ and that was three of the Nannies. I was in a complete state at that point and saying ‘Oh I think I’ve something’ and them just saying ‘Oh, don’t worry’ or whatever,

we tried to, tried to go to bed, I think purely because we knew in the morning we’d be asked for statements, so it was like (inaudible) sleep at all but it was like try and, try and get some rest to function in the morning”.

Russell and Matt they were sort of searching, I don’t know where they searched, but they, they were actually sort of running around actually looking farther afield, so didn’t really see them much at all. I can’t remember when they came back but I remember them coming back and then they went off again. And then I think they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ. And that was the first time I’d ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry’s apartment through the whole week,

That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah”.

when the GNR people came, so the first lot of Police, the local Police came, erm, I spoke to them and I think that was through the translator, which was, I think she’s called Sylvie, she’s the Head of Housekeeping or something, she was doing the translating at that point. So I’d spoken to the GNR Police and then when the PJ came, they came to get me to talk to them to say, to say what, what I’d seen.

4078 “So when you went into Gerry and Kate’s apartment who else was there?”

Reply “Erm, I think there was Russ, I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator. I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table. And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.

4078 “And how was Gerry at that point?”

Reply “Oh he was just, well obviously, obviously distraught. And I think it was quite hard for me to be saying at that, you know, looking in his face and to be explaining what I’d seen, at that point was quite hard because, you know, Gerry was obviously standing there, I don’t know whether, and you sort of think ‘Oh God, here’s me, if I’d tried to stop them this wouldn’t have happened’ sort of thing. So I think I did feel sort of a bit obviously guilty at that stage even though I didn’t know whether it was anything, but obviously you think ‘Oh bloody hell, what if I’, not stopped it happened potentially”.

The next morning they had gone up into, erm, Dave and Fi, we didn’t feel we could go up there, but it was almost like, you know, I don’t know how to put it into words, but they were so distraught, it was how do you talk to somebody like that, especially because we don’t know them that well, so we almost like left Dave and Fi, you know, to cope with the emotional side of it. and the thought of standing there and talking to Kate about what I’ve seen is just too horrible to, you know, think about at that stage.

So we got picked up in the morning and taken to the Police Station and then they were all waiting, because I think my interview was the longest that day

4078 “Did you ever have a reaction from Kate and Gerry about what you had seen and how you felt about what you had seen?”

in those first few days we hardly saw them at all really, you know, because they were so, they were busy obviously with the Press and with everything else, so I can’t actually remember a specific time that, I think it was, it was actually a few days later that we actually sat down and sort of I actually told them directly what I’d seen. I was hoping, you know, still hoping it didn’t have a significance”.

I think when I realised the true significance of what I’d seen as well was almost like a couple of days afterwards when, erm, erm, I was talking to Fi about the pyjamas, because again it seems madness now why I hadn’t asked Kate and Gerry before this what the pyjamas were like, but it’s all sort of rha rha, you know, so I didn’t know what, what Madeleine’s pyjamas were before this. And I’d actually read in a paper that they were white, it was in the Telegraph, I think it was the day afterwards Dianne had bought a Telegraph paper (celui du 5 mai) and in there it was saying she was wearing plain white pyjamas, so I think when I read that I almost thought ‘Oh maybe I have got it wrong’,

we hardly saw them at all. I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie

4078 “How long did you end up staying in Portugal for?”

Reply “It was two weeks”.

we flew back on, well the Thursday, it was actually two weeks from the day, from the third, so, whatever”.

4078 “About the seventeenth?”

And can you summarise what you did then, between the third and the seventeenth?”

I can’t remember exactly what day the surveillance was, but then there was the, the surveillance when, erm, they took me round the back of the van for the surveillance day and I think that was probably, maybe the Tuesday or the Monday of the week before we went back”.

4078 “Okay. And can you just go on to tell me a bit more about that surveillance?”

Bob SMALL rang, erm, rang me on my phone and sort of said, well he scared the living daylights out of me, because rather than saying ‘The Portuguese Police want to talk to you’, or you know, ‘I want to pick you up to see the Portuguese Police’, he said ‘I need to pick you up and take you to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even Russell’ and all this, so it was sort of a bit and because he’d said Spanish Police, I thought there was some sort of a strange conspiracy going on, so it was like, oh, but, I mean, he just got”.

“He just got mixed up. I didn’t even know who Bob SMALL was at that point and I did tell Russell where I was going, because I thought ‘I’m not just going and getting in a car with somebody who is taking me to see the Spanish Police’. So Russell, we walked, so I arranged to meet Bob SMALL in a car park at half seven or something at night or whatever it was, so Russell and I walked up to, erm, to meet Bob SMALL and, by chance, erm, we walked up, we’d missed the throng of Press that were at the top of the road, we actually walked up by Robert MURAT’s house and he came down in his car, in his van at that point, stopped, and he knew Russ, he’d met Russell earlier in the week, so he actually jumped out to say ‘Hi’ to Russell and he was showing us, erm, things in the back of his car as to what he was doing with the, erm, because they’d set up a stop where people could come and give their own evidence”.

I was worried sick I was about to be abducted by the people”.

4078 “By the Spanish Police?”

Reply “And taken to the Spanish Police, so I was a bit sort of like, you know. Erm, and so we stopped to talk, that was probably a couple of minutes, and he was trying to show us all this stuff, but I was, at that point, I was thinking ‘Oh shut-up I need to go and meet Bob SMALL’”.

4078 “Do you remember his car?”

Reply “It was the green, I remember thinking at the time ‘He’s very keen to show us’, you know, ‘show us what he was doing’, but, you know, we thought ‘Oh great’, but. So we then carried on and I met Bob SMALL and Russell wrote down the number plate of the car just in case I was taken away. And, erm, then Bob drove me up to where, erm, the rest of the team were to do the surveillance. Erm, so I went off in the back of this like refrigerated, well it was pretending to be a refrigerated, erm, van and took it round to the point on the road and obviously, in hindsight now, I realise they were probably calling Robert MURAT to try and get him to walk across, across the top of the road so that, you know, I could see. But it was a bit odd because there was a car, where we were parked there was a car that moved just at that point that he appeared and then two other people walked by, so I didn’t really, but I didn’t even recognise it as the person I’d been talking to five minutes before, well, you know, half an hour before, so. Erm, and then, erm, then went, I think because it has gone a bit wrong because this car had been there and then tried to set it up elsewhere, but again I couldn’t really see, I couldn’t really see that well and, you know, it didn’t look, it didn’t jog, jog any memories”.

Having seen MURAT then and obviously in the papers since, could you link the two of those?”

Reply “I don’t think so. I mean, I don’t, phew, I don’t, I don’t think it, no, there doesn’t, there’s no, but then the person I see in the paper doesn’t really look like my recollection of the person I met on the way to meet Bob SMALL. It’s really annoying because normally I would have probably taken more notice but I was so worried about what I was going to do, because I didn’t know at this point at all, I didn’t really take any notice, but I think the hair was too short and I remember it being, being long into the neck and not so. Again, I don’t really, when I saw Robert MURAT outside his house he looked quite little to me, but then when you see him on the telly he seems quite bit (big ?) so I can’t, again, I don’t think the build, the build was right, I don’t”.

4078 “You don’t feel it was the same person?”

Reply “No, I don’t, no”.


Duration of Interview: 56 minutes

So Gerry and Jez, as far as you can say, were near to where it says ‘gate’ on that building?”

Reply “Yeah but I think sort of somewhere between the gate and the alley, and the alley way, sort of within that area.”

4078 “How much of a bearing do you think the street lighting had on your perception of colours?”

they weren’t a nice colour trousers. I really can’t remember, but twilight definitely, it’d had twilighted to dark and err as I say with the pink part of the pyjamas I’ve always wondered whether that was a little girl, is it, are you going to plant into your head the pink pyjamas. It was the bottom bit of them that gives me the most thought in my own head that it was Madeleine. So I don’t know, I feel, I thought I saw pink pyjamas and I thought I could see colours but I don’t know, it was fairly orange so I don’t know.”

4078 “Okay, so you think it was pink but you accept that it may not have been, the colour may have been distorted or it might have been such the power of suggestion I suppose.”

Reply “That could have been that for me because the pyjamas I really tried to, it was in the interview the next day when they really pushed me you know I think you call it cognitive interview or whatever, really pushed me to get an idea of you know more details about the person and it was then that you know sort of the description of the pyjamas was more in my head than I’d initial, it was mainly the feet as an initial thing.”

Reply “But err so I don’t know, I may, that is the one I don’t know maybe that was power of suggestion but I thought I saw a pattern on the bottom.”

your description from your first statement…” you said earlier you think that would be your best description.”

you heard anything. Specifically, did you hear any car doors?”

you said to me earlier that you can’t remember hearing anything else.”

no, I didn’t.”

she was on the ground floor and you walked, you must have walked past her room three, three times I think we’ve…”

when you walk round the top of the road you sort of walk round here so you pass, so this is a car park and you’ve got another wall probably three, three cars distance from there which is the road, which is the main road, its hard to describe, err so you walk round here and along this bit of road here so that’s, that’s, that bit there is a shutter, as it says.”

“So you walk past here but within this space here it’s this car park and I think there was room for at least two cars, if not, there must have been because I can remember when the dogs were there. There was two of the dog handling cars.”

“In this space. So you walk past here and there’s a wall here, there’s another wall like that.”

when I went into my apartment I go sort of down here and then walk across this car park but its, its back here.”

“So you don’t actually walk directly past that bit at all.”

4078 “Right, so my understanding was wrong because I was thinking you’d be walking right out here.”

Reply “No, no not at all.”

4078 “So there’s this sort of, barriers between their apartment and where you’re walking.”

Reply “There’s a big car park here.”

4078 “So you’d have to go out of your way to go back to that one?”

Reply “I’d have to go all the way in, round my bit and then all the way…”

4078 “Back.”

Reply “Along a little passageway to get back to there.”

4078 “Right, presumably that’s why Gerry, well you can’t answer for him, but why Gerry and Kate left their other door open because it was more accessible to the open that way to check them.”

Reply “Err yeah I mean they could get round this way but they would have to come in that way then come back so it was a lot, it was a lot quicker for…”

4078 “And I think, I can’t remember whether we covered this earlier, did you check anybody else’s children throughout your holiday?”

Reply “No, I never went into another apartment, I listened err earlier in the week, I’d had sort of after I’d been I’d listen outside this window and the other window but I never, I never actually went into another apartment.”



4078 “So had the, had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn’t have noticed…”

Reply “I wouldn’t have noticed, no.”

4078 “I know we’ve covered that they were up to your right and you were going to acknowledge them but they were so intently involved in their company that…”

4078 “In such, in such, they were absorbed in their conversation.”

Reply “Deep conversation.”

4078 “So you didn’t acknowledge them in the end, at what distance from them were you when you passed?

Reply “Yeah, I don’t know I think, I mean again it’s hard because I’ve spoken to Gerry and he thinks it’s further away but I think they were sort of, I’m trying to…”

4078 “You need wheels on that don’t you.”

Reply “I mean I think I sort of walked past, do you know how wide the pavement was, I walked past, and I think they were sort of, I think sort of almost, I mean it’s ridiculous they didn’t see me but they were sort of almost where, they were very, they were close enough for me to say, to have try and say you know think I could say hello.”

4078 “Without having to raise your voice?”

Reply “Yeah, otherwise everything, you know, so I mean even if I was starting from the other side of that, I’m trying to think how big the path was, but yeah I was walking up the path and they were, I think they were very…”

4078 “Yeah.”

Reply “Very, quite close.”

4078 “So within a couple of metres?”

Reply “A couple of metres, yeah two, yeah, two, three metres I think.”
Le trottoir n'a pas plus de 2 m de large et GMC était dessus

4078 “And you said already that you thought Gerry had his back to you…”

Reply “Yeah I think…”

4078 “As far as you can remember?”

Reply “Yeah, yeah.”

4078 “And Gez may have been facing you but you can’t really remember.”

Reply “I can’t remember which, I’m trying to remember, because he obviously had the pram I’m trying to remember which way the pram was facing but I, no I can’t, no.”

4078 “Okay.”

Reply “Again, I almost think I can remember it pointing down the road but if he was going back to his apartment it would have been pointing up the road so I don’t know, but.”
Absolument et comme il y a une pente, il faut exercer une force pour empêcher la poussette de rouler.

4078 “Your mind’s trying to make sense of what you even know.”

Reply “Yeah, no, yeah so I don’t know.”

4078 “And you, obviously you can’t remember whether or not Gez saw you?”

Reply “No. As I say I don’t think they did see because as I went to acknowledge them and they, they didn’t sort of say hello back or anything.”

4078 “Yeah. I think I asked you the distance, the time it took to get from the Tapas to your apartment, which I think you said about a minute and a half.”

Reply “Yeah, yeah a minute and a half or two minutes I don’t know.”

4078 “And would that have been the length of time it took you on that occasion when you passed Gerry and Gez and saw the man? Would that have been about a minute and a half to get there?”

Reply “Err yeah I would say, I mean I was walking fairly sharpish as I said so yeah.”

4078 “And what sort of length of time would it have taken you to get back after you’d done your check?”

Reply “Err about the same, you know I didn’t dawdle back or stop to talk to anyone.”

4078 “You didn’t skid down the hill or anything?”

Reply “No I didn’t, so, no it was uphill, so.”

4078 “One of the questions here is why didn’t you, we kind of already have covered this, why didn’t you warn the MCCANN’S immediately about the man you saw, assuming that because you didn’t see the relevance of it at that point?”

Reply “Well I thought Gerry knew because he was there and, well I didn’t want to tell Kate within sort of ten minutes of Madeleine being missing because it just didn’t seem the right thing to say to her to say oh I’ve just seen somebody walking off with potentially somebody err and then after that I hardly, as I say I thought Gerry, Gerry was there when I was talking to the PJ so he would have known from that and after that I hardly saw them, or I never saw them in a state when I felt I could you know raise it so to speak.”
Une chose ou l'autre. Ou bien Jane pense (il faut supposer qu'elle a pensé cela quand elle a eu connaissance de la disparition) que Gerald, qui était présent comme elle, a vu le porteur d'enfant comme elle, et alors effectivement il est raisonnable d'attendre que Gerald l'interroge sur les détails dont elle pourrait se souvenir, s'il y attache de l'importancr. Ou bien elle sait que Gerald n'a pu voir le porteur d'enfant et répugne à jouer les oiseaux de mauvais augure "dix minutes" après le constat de la disparition.


after Madeleine’s disappearance did you see them running at all?”

Reply “I saw them go, yeah it was quite a few days afterwards

During your stay at the Ocean Club apartment did you ever leave your doors or windows open?”

I can’t say definitely we didn’t forget to close the patio door one time when we went out but we didn’t knowingly leave any, leave any doors or windows open.”

We made a point and it was definitely a point of being deadlocked.”
Mais quand Kate a demandé, à table, ce que ses compagnes pensaient de laisser ouvert, aucune ne s'est exprimée.

4078 “And the shutters were always down in their room?”

Reply “No I don’t think we touched the shutters the whole time we were there.”

4078 “I’ll read the number out to you anyway and see if it makes any sense to you, the number is 917453319 and it’s”.

4078 “It is a Portuguese number”.

4078 “But it’s a number that I think you rang and text her that twenty five to eleven on the evening of the fourth, so that would have been the Friday evening”.

Reply “Right. Texted erm did (inaudible) only thing I can think is, did Dave and Fi have a Spanish (inaudible), Portuguese mobile (inaudible) I don’t know”.

4078 “We’ll perhaps come to that one”.

Reply “Yeah, no I can’t think what it’d be”.

this is the fourth of May statement, which is the one that has a description in, bear with me just one, one last part. This part about Matthew”.

4078 “I need to check the other statement you made as well, there’s a mention when we were speaking earlier that Matthew had made a comment about, oh sorry, I’ve found it, I’ve found it now. It depends on which way you read this as to what it means, now I need to clarify with you way it was intended”?

4078 Do you remember if Matthew made a comment when he came back to the Tapas Bar about being only able to see the twins”?

Reply “No, this was afterwards, this was after we discussed it that night, so yeah, no it wasn’t then, he hadn’t made it then, it was after she’d gone missing”.

you know your first statement that you did”.

4078 “The, the man that you saw was an olive skinned brunette male and looking between thirty five to forty years old, slim build, about 1.7 metres tall, he had very dark, thick short hair, which went down to the back of his neck, as seen from behind, he was wearing beige/golden coloured linen type trousers with a duffel coat but not too thick. The shoes were black in colour and classic in style, he was walking in a rush, he was carrying a child lying on both of his arms in front of his chest, by the way he was dressed, I thought he was a tourist because he was too wrapped up”.
Contradictoire avec ce qu'elle a dit deux fois plus haut (ou lost in transcription ?)

Reply “Yeah”.

4078 “How does that seem to you now”?

Reply “Yeah seems, only I’m not sure I said duffel coat, don’t think I would have said, I think the duffel, I think I’d said it was gathered, it may be a duffel coat but sort of the blousy-ness, it was all gathered round his bottom for the want of a better, but yeah I think, yeah the shoes I mean I think a lot was made of the shoes but that was almost like a, that was an add on at the end, that was to, I think this might be what the shoes were like, it wasn’t a definite, the shoes were like this, this is when I was pushed to add more and more information to it, it was more, that’s what the shoes were like, so I didn’t study the shoes and I think that I took that more from the point it wasn’t tra, it didn’t seem to be trainer type shoes, that’s, but erm, but yeah the rest is fairly, the golden was the mustard, because I was trying to point out colours in the room to him cos I couldn’t, in the translation we couldn’t get over what sort of colour”.

hat sort of yellowy tinge to it, rather than gold, I wouldn’t say it was, it wasn’t so gold, it’s too strong a word for it”.

she’s unsure but seems to remember how you seen some design on the pyjamas, which could have been flowers but you’re not sure”?

Reply “Mmm, you see I said earlier, I didn’t think the turn up bit had gone into this description but I do remember very clearly, the Translator, during my second interview, when I said in the second interview about the turn ups, she sort of said yes I can remember you saying that .

4078 “So it was said, it just might not have been in it”?

Reply “It was definitely said

Now in relation to the male she had seen, she’d only spoken with Gerald McCANN but not in detail and with the Police”?

Reply “Well I’d spoken with other people within the group but hadn’t spoken to Kate about it earlier and Gerry I’d only spoken to cos he was there when I was giving the”.

I’ve never seen Madeleine in pyjamas at home and or anywhere so”.

I mean it’s more relevant to everybody else than to me, it’s probably some of the Robert MURAT bits, in terms of erm Rachel, Fi and Russ and into, erm it was sort of how that came about and how they came to give their statements on that, I don’t know whether it’s a good time to talk about that”?

I did the surveillance and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards. So Rachel came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”.

I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.

Reply “But I just thought it was”.

when I got back, I didn’t even tell Russell what I’d done cos I took very seriously what the Police said in terms of not you know, not telling anybody”.

I’d just really like to say to the Portuguese Police you know, I think there’s been a lot said but from a, you know we’re not a bunch of swingers that went out there for a swinging holiday, I can’t think of anything to be worse to be honest, they’ve obviously got this idea of us and it’s just completely, completely wrong, there’s no way they are involved in any shape or form, you know we saw their reaction on the night, we saw their reaction afterwards, we see their reaction now, they’re not involved and the thing is, there’s somebody out there you know, Madeleine if she’s dead or alive whatever you know, maybe it is too late to find her but there’s somebody out there that’s done this and it’s not Kate and Gerry, it’s not us, you know they can do it again and none of us are involved and you know, I just don’t know what else we can do to make them believe us and we were normal people that made a really stupid decision because we were lulled into a false sense of security from previous holidays where baby listening was offered so I don’t know”.

Have you ever visited Kate and Gerry at their home address”?

Reply “Yes a couple of times, we went to Madeleine’s birthday the year before, so it would be her third birth, yeah her third birthday and I think we’ve probably been there maybe one other time”.


4078 “And the last time you saw Madeleine was on the afternoon you (inaudible)”?

Reply “Yeah we were playing tennis yeah”.

...

4078 “How many times did you meet Kate and Gerry”? let’s assume it means afterwards”?

Reply “Erm I didn’t actually see them until they got back in the UK, I’m trying to think, the first time was, we obviously had conversation, phone conversations and texts but I don’t think I saw them until, I think it might have been beginning of November before we actually, no it must have been before then, I know I saw them when I did the, I saw Gerry when I did the sketch, you know when the sketch came out, I saw Gerry then but I didn’t see Kate, I think the first time I saw Kate was when I went up to do the (inaudible), so that was November time, actually to see them face to face”.
4078    “Now do you think they were showing normal behaviour for parents who have lost a child”?
 Reply    “Yeah I do because I think and knowing their personalities, especially Gerry, I mean Gerry had to throw himself completely into you know, he used the campaign and everything else as his coping mechanism to get him through on a day to day basis and some people might think that’s not normal but knowing Gerry and you know he is a very, he’s a very decisive, very, he always has, you know he makes a decision and then that’s the right you know, the way to go, so no I think they were, and Kate’s obviously just a mess, so I think it’s completely, knowing them, I think it’s completely how I would expect them to, to react”.
4078    “Okay.  During the time you were on holiday, did you notice situation where Kate and Gerry were talking to any unknown person”?
 Reply    “Erm no, the only people, Gerry’s very, I mean Gerry’s the sort of person that gets somewhere and he knows everybody straight away, so he’s very sociable, so I think he’d probably know a lot more people than the rest of the group through the, through his tennis as well

Duration of Interview: 11 minutes


4078 “Do you remember which, do you remember which door Russell left your apartment by when he left after you’d taken over the care of Evie”?

I’m fairly sure it was the road side one, I would say the road side one but I can’t remember”.

did you lock the doors behind him”?

if you just shut the doors they locked anyway, erm so nobody could have got, if it was the road side door, if you shut it, it locked but you could further dead lock it, I don’t think I would have dead locked it”.

4078 “But you would have needed the key to have got back in anyway”?

Reply “Yes”.

4078 “Or you would have had to have let him in”?

Reply “I would have had to let him in, or he would need a key to get back in yeah”.
Pas besoin de clef pour ouvrir de l'intérieur.

4078 “Okay, okay, do you remember when you told Russell that man carrying the child”?

Reply “It was when he’d, he came back from one of the searches, I remember two of them came back to the apartment and it was, it was then, straight away”.

4078 “And when you told Russell, did you tell him with a matter of urgency, as a matter of urgency, with an urgency to the way you were telling him, or was it just an oh by the way I saw this”?

Reply “Oh no, it was a definite oh effing blah you know, I think it was a definite, oh I think I’ve seen something you know, sort of a yeah”.

before or after you told Fiona”?

I think it was afterwards cos I think Fiona, I think Fiona was fairly soon after I’d seen Rachael, so I would, I would say it was after Fiona

Rachael was the first person I told”.

Donc Rachael, Fiona, Russell et Matt or David.
then I think when Russell and Matt or Russell and Dave, whoever it was that came back, I then, then told them”.

Do you know if Rachael rang the BBC that night, or early in the morning, or there’s some mention of an email from David PAYNE to the BBC, do you have any knowledge of that”?

I think I remember discussions about I think Gerry might have asked Dave to ring Sky, I don’t know whether it was that way, or no to email, there was some erm talk of, I can remember talk of emailing Sky, I don’t know what, where it came from and I think that was mainly Dave,, I think me and Russell are more erm wary of the media and we were like oh is it the right thing to do, and in terms of Rachael, I know she has a friend who’s married to someone at the BBC so, but I don’t know whether, I can’t, I’m not sure if she actually did it, I think it was the next day, I don’t think it was during the night”.
Là elle se trompe grossièrement.

the final thing that I need to ask you is in relation to attending Portugal for the reconstruction, what are your thoughts on that”?

Reply “Erm it’s hard, I mean I think in an ideal world I’d be on the plane tomorrow if I thought it would help erm find, find Madeleine but some great concerns about the media and the, how the media will react to it, how that it will view it, you know will it just be a, another chance to have a dig at us, rather than actually focussing, focussing it back onto the, finding out what happened, or where Madeleine is, so I think that is a big concern. Also it’s too late in the day, this should have been done, you know this was requested in the first couple of weeks we were there, this should have been done then, a year down the line, I would like to know exactly what hoping to gain for it because okay you might be able to see different escape routes that you think of but through you know DNA evidence or anything to back it up at this stage and it’s almost like and from totally personal level, the thought of going and sitting there and going through it, it’s just hideous, so I think I really need to understand that it has to be us that does it and why, I can understand that obviously we’re the best people to do it but you know, in terms of damage from a selfish point of view to us, other people from the media, psychologically whatever, I really need to know that there is really good reasons and that they really think there’s gonna be stuff comes out of it that can be used or you know what they are hoping to get out of it and it’s not, and if I’m being, going to my completely cynical side you know, is it, there’s not just a way to get us back to Portugal, so you know we, not that they can do whatever they want with us but you know getting us back to there so that they can slap an arguido status on us or you know, all of that sort of thing you know”.
Jane, malgré tant de dégoût, est retournée à PdL avec GMC pour filmer une reconstrufiction.

I say in an ideal world I’d get on the plane tomorrow but I really need to understand that it’s worth doing and it’s not just a tick box exercise to be able to close the case or anything like that you know, cos it, I think they have to understand the affect you know that it could, the media you know, from a media point of view and a psychological point of view, the thought of walking up that road again and just going through it all, would just be hideous, so you know I think”.

I don’t know what extra information I can give so far down the line or if I do give any extra information and retrace the steps, you know what, I suppose we might, I wouldn’t, if you know if I think oh they look more like this, is it accurate to this far down the line, you know I think that is the”.

“It’s almost like a what, what benefit is gonna come out of it in that way and that’s not me being, I’m not being, cos the last thing is, you know I want to do everything we can to help but we’ve got to, because of the way the case has gone, we’ve got to sit, look at it in terms of damage limitation to us and our families you know down the line and we don’t want to give the chance, (inaudible) completely new set of you know media hype”.

4078 “Not unless it’s going to produce something worthwhile”?

Reply “Produce something worth, worthwhile and I mean I’m not a Policeman, I’m not, I don’t know what is hoping you know, what they are hoping to get, to get from it, the only thing I can see at the moment that they’re hoping to get from it, is to find a hole in our story and from our point of view, we know there isn’t one of those, or you know, that’s not gonna help find Madeleine, so I need to understand exactly what they think is gonna help find Madeleine by us going back”.

I can see at the moment, obviously the damage to us being more than the, than the benefit to Madeleine”.



Duration of Interview: 8 minutes

just to clarify some points in relation to a sequence of events that was drawn up, it is a timeline, in effect, of the events that happened on Thursday May the third two thousand and seven. Firstly, I mean, I don’t know what format you may have seen this in before”.

Reply “Umm”.

4078 “How did this come about?”

Reply “Erm, I can’t remember when we decided, but I think it was a couple of days afterwards, we were just, we were all coming up with different bits of what had happened when and, et cetera, and we were just worried that over time that would, you know, we would lose, we wouldn’t be able to remember what was, what happened when, so we just thought we’d put it down on paper. I think different people had put like little bits down on bits of paper for their own memory, so we just thought we’d get together, put it all down and just, I suppose in a way, do a bit of our own, not investigative work, but, you know, put it together and see if anything stood out to us really”.

4078 “And who did that?”

Reply “I think it was Dave’s initial idea or I think, I don’t know whether, well I think Dave sort of said and then we borrowed a computer from the tennis coach, just so that we had something to, to write it down on. But we all did it together, we sort of all sat, we sat together and did, did it”.

4078 “Were there any sticking points?”

Reply “Phew, oh, I can’t remember now, erm, nothing major, nothing major that I can think at all, I think there was probably, you know, times, timings, there was probably ‘Oh I thought it was a bit later’ or ‘I thought it was a bit earlier’, but nothing, in terms of the actual sort of sequence of events, there was nothing that (inaudible) many times”.

4078 “What I am trying to cover is, if anybody would look at this cynically”.

Reply “Within the group? Oh no”.

4078 “Externally”.

Reply “Yeah”.

4078 “If people were to view this cynically and they may argue that”.

Reply “Yeah”.

4078 “That everyone has been pressured into conforming to stating these times and sticking to these times. Do you know what I am driving at?”

Reply “No, no, I mean, that wasn’t, and I think with everything that has happened since, we do think whether doing this was a bad idea, because it does like we were all getting our story straight, but it was done in completely good faith, just purely because we knew we’d forget or we were forgetting, you know, between us we were forgetting things that had happened, so we just thought it would be a help to, to put it down on paper. And we did it and gave it to the Police, so it wasn’t something we did without, you know, to keep to ourselves, we sort of did it and then gave it to the Police straight away when we’d done it, so, no, there was no”.
S'il ne s'était agi que d'assurer leurs mémoires respectives, pourquoi donner ce document à la police ? Pour était-ce si important, mais faire une reconstitution, pas question ? En plus ils ne l'ont pas donné à la police "straight away", mais au consulat.

4078 “So the notes, for doing it, was purely with good intention and they weren’t, as I say, you know, if you were to view it cynically, they are not a kind of aide memoir of people trying to remember?”

Reply “No, it was purely because we thought we’d forget ourselves and we thought it would help the Police to have our collective thoughts, thoughts on it”.
Mais pas leur collective présence !

4078 “The times on it, I will go through them, but they are fairly consistent with what you have said on your interviews anyway”.

Reply “Right”.

4078 “Twenty, I don’t like saying twenty thirty, ‘Half past eight standard booking for meal at Tapas Restaurant. Twenty five to nine Gerry and Kate arrive. Twenty to nine Jane TANNER arrives, followed shortly by Matthew OLDFIELD and Rachael MAMPILLY. Quarter to nine Russell arrives. Five to nine Matthew OLDFIELD returns to check the ground floor flats and then also sees David and Fiona and Dianne’”.

Reply “Umm”.

4078 “’Three minutes to nine Matthew OLDFIELD listens outside all ground floor flats. Nine o’clock Matthew OLDFIELD returns to the table. Starters were ordered. Five past nine Gerry McCANN returns to his flat’. It describes how he found the door, et cetera, on that visit. ‘Quarter past nine Jane TANNER leaves the table and sees Gerry talking to a fellow resident, the two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua da Silva Road’. I don’t know if I am saying that properly. You didn’t speak to Gerry as you passed. And then as you continued up the hill you saw a man. Then you have got the description of the man here”.

Reply “Umm”.

4078 “Which is the same as the description in your first statement. I will go through it again anyway just in case there is any discrepancies”.

Reply “Umm”.

4078 “’A man aged thirty-five to forty, one point seven metres tall with slim build, a good head of dark glossy hair with a possible flick of hair to the right’”.

Reply “Yeah, I think that’s because I just saw a lot of, a lot of hair”.

4078 “’The hair was longer at the back, not clippered or shaven. The central and the left side of the face were not seen. Full length trousers, casual in material, hanging without creases, the colour was possibly a brown or mustard, they were not jeans. A long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front possibly by a zipper, it had a gathered lower hem and was also possibly brownish in colour. The shoes may have been semi formal brogue. Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be ascertained. He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable objects. He was only carrying a child with the head against the left upper chest away from Jane TANNER and the feet to the right, i.e. cradling the child like a baby. He appeared to be walking in a rush to get somewhere. He was not someone Jane TANNER recognised from the week. He was not typically dressed for a tourist. His clothing did not seem to be of UK origin and they had rather been purchased in Portugal’”.

Reply “Umm, yeah, not UK origin, yeah”.

4078 “And the description of the child, ‘A Caucasian child. About the ages of three to four. Was seen to lie motionless, limp in the man’s arms, with her sleeping or possibly drugged. She didn’t seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night, wearing only pyjamas. The trousers were light coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups. The top was not seen well enough, although there was thought to be another colour involved, possibly pink. She was not wearing shoes. Twenty past nine Jane TANNER then returns to the restaurant by which time Gerry had also returned. Twenty-five past nine, after the starters, Matthew OLDFIELD and’ who is ‘RJO’?”

Reply “Russell. Russell, it’s Russell James O’BRIEN. So that’s Russell”.

4078 “Right. Okay. ‘Go back to the apartments via the car park entrance to check all the flats’. Half past nine Russell remains in your apartment and Matthew goes on to check the other children before coming back. ‘Twenty-five to ten Matthew returns to the restaurant table’. Twenty to ten you return to take over Evie’s care’?”

Reply “Umm”.

4078 “’Quarter to ten’, which you can’t comment on, ‘Russell returns to the table’. And ‘Five to ten’, again you can’t comment on that because you were still in the apartment, ‘RMO’?”

Reply “Rachael. No, ‘RMO’? Rachael, yeah”.

4078 “’RMO last time at table’?”

Reply “Rachael OLDFIELD, yeah”.

4078 (inaudible) And ‘Ten o’clock Kate leaves the table to check on her children’. So, as I said, there is nothing different there to what you have already said”.

Reply “No, and, I mean, this was done after all of our initial statements as well, so, I mean, it wasn’t sort of a get it all down on paper so we’re ready for the initial statements, it was done, I think, two or three days after that, so that was purely because we thought we were going to forget for ourselves”.

4078 “Yeah, I can understand that.





Le récit de JT ne s'adosse à aucun autre témoignage, bien que la plupart certifient que JT a fait une ronde juste après le départ de GMC. Mais, comme elle n'a pas fait allusion à un en revenant à table, il n'y a qu'elle pour certifier qu'elle l'a vu à ce moment-là. Tout le monde répète comme si c'était la vérité, mais ce n'est qu'une histoire racontée par JT.