08 - AVR 9 - Audition rog. Rachael MO
Leicestershire Constabulory - 09.04.08 (extraits)
Tout était mal, le taxi n'est pas assez grand, quoi faire de sa voiture en arrivant à l'aéroport, il y a un service "valet" mais personne ne répond, MO tombe malade le jour suivant et d'autres après alors qu'aucun d'eux n'est jamais malade, ne sont-ils pas médecins ? Autant parler de la malédiction de PDL
Habiter près les uns des autres était la condition sine qua non pour pouvoir dîner ensemble.
Il n'y avait pas de clef pour la grille d'entrée.
we could have been anywhere, completely separate from each other, so we asked if we could, you know if they could really make sure that we were all together because otherwise it would mean you know we couldn’t really have had dinner together
Ils auraient pu, avec une babysitter ou en déposant à la crèche de nuit.
baby listening, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door,
Qui dit que c'est le double de temps ? Le principe du baby listening est que l'on est toujours assez proche pour entendre des pleurs. Si un enfant pleure, alors on s'approche pour déterminer le lieu.
a bit of a garden and then a gate out onto a path that ran along the back of the apartments”.
Reply “There was, there was kind of one big shutter I think and then a narrower one it you were looking out, to the car park, there was a wide shutter here and then there was a narrow one, window and shutters”.
Deux fenêtres donc dans cette chambre ? Ce qui expliquerait que MO décrive 2 fenêtres dans la chambre des jumeaux ?
“We used the front door, I mean if we were just sort of all popping out and just quickly to the pool, we’d go out the patio doors and just leave them unlocked,
but certainly at night when we went to dinner and if we were gonna be off for a couple of hours, then we went out the front door and double lock it so”.
basically we’d go and have dinner and then we’d sort of run back you know every fifteen twenty minutes and have a listen at the door and make sure nobody’s screaming their head off”.
MW a défini la norme et ils ont fait mieux.
we would just check our own children basically, ”.
Ils n'allaient voir que leur enfant.
Ils n'ont jamais ouvert les persiennes ni la fenêtre.
Rachael ne comprend pas l'histoire des persiennes/fenêtre ouvertes. Si le ravisseur entre par le patio, pourquoi ne sort-il pas par là ou par l'autre porte beaucoup plus facile ? Donc, s'ils sont ouverts, c'est qu'il est entré par là, ce qui suppose que la fenêtre n'était pas verrouillée, mais comment pouvait-il savoir qu'elle ne le serait pas.
“ about sort of every twenty minutes, Gerry and Kate were very good about you know doing it every twenty minutes,
the patio doors were locked and the front door was double locked
it wasn’t ‘til, until Madeleine disappeared that we actually checked that the windows were locked
you kind of assumed that they were cos the shutters were down and , then we left the shutters down the whole time, we didn’t bother to open them, not even in the day, ”.
1578 “How was the window locked”?
Reply “Oh it just had some sort of little catch but you know it was just when Madeleine disappeared, we had a thinking well you know, could a cleaner or somebody from the inside have just kind of left it unlocked for that day, you know so that somebody coming in at night, could come in from the outside by lifting up the shutters and opening the window, you know if they’d come in from the, you know through the window, cos we could never really work out why the shutters were up and the window was open, if I don’t know, no it was just our theories of how somebody might have got in, you know, if they’d come in the patio door, why would they have gone out the window, I’m sure that they could have just gone back out that way, or they could have even just gone out the front door, which would have been much easier, so one of the, our theories for why the window and the shutters were open, were that you know, they came in that way and then but that would mean obviously that the window would have had to have been unlocked, you know either all week, or sometime during the day you know, that’s kind of a bit of a risky thing to do because actually you know, if, if they had been checked before the children went to bed and you know Gerry and Kate had found the window unlocked, then they would have locked it and then that would have kind of scuppered anyone’s plans for coming in that way”.
A quick trawl on crime scenes and suspects threw up the following ideas which I have shamelessly copied and pasted:
'Potential witnesses and suspects are detained and removed from the scene by police officers to be searched and questioned. The police must also ensure that suspects are not allowed to return to the scene of the crime before it has fully documented, in order to prevent 'evidence tampering'.'
Retour du criminel sur le lieu du crime
Normalement les témoins et suspects potentiels sont écartés de la scène du crime et emmenés au commissariat pour être questionnés. La police s'assure que les suspects ne sont pas autorisés à retourner sur la scène du crime avant que celle-ci soit complètement analysée.
'To admire his/her work, to correct mistakes that may have been made, complete any unfinished procedures. Some are even looking to get caught for reasons of fame!'
'Some subconscious compulsion perhaps or maybe regret? There are psychological factors as well as material ones generaly speaking'.
'They revisit so that the police might be encouraged to think that he-she wasn't the criminal....If they were sick enough to do the crime going back to it would be a pleasure for them'.
'In most of the cases the perps do revist the scene! It is very hard for them to overcome this psychology. They do so to check whether they had left any clues in their hurry to escape from the scene of the crime, and also to judge investigation proceedings'.
'But there are exceptions. Some very hard-core, cool-brained, intelligent and professional criminals who are certain of the perfection of their crime do not return to the crime scene. But they are very few in number, and these are mostly found in detective stories'.
None of the Tapas appear to have bothered to learn a word of Portuguese, either before or since their ill-fated visit,
Il est sûr que la reconstitution, liminairement, signifiait que l'enlèvement n'était pas possible. Ils le savaient et c'est pourquoi ils n'ont pas voulu reconstituer.
1578 “The locking mechanism on the window, was that key operated, or just manually”?
Reply “No I think it was just like a little catch that sort of went, it was a sliding window , there might have been a button on the handle, yeah it might have been a button on the, on the handle and the window slid back”.
every day after that we ate, we all had lunch in Dave and Fi’s apartment, it was you know, pasta or something for the kids and Diane would make sandwiches for all of us”.
Gerry and Kate didn’t come up and have lunch there, because the twins didn’t sleep in the Rachael rêve, elle admet qu'ils n'entraient pas dans la chambre, sauf quand l'enfant avait une dhiarée.
we’d go into the room, which ordinarily we wouldn’t do to be honest, but she seemed to have diarrhoea
the route taken”?
Reply “Was up the road and then in through the car park at the back and in through the front door”.
I didn’t really like going up there by myself, it was, like going through that car park was quite dark and there was never anyone around, it was a bit, you know made me feel a bit uneasy”.
sort of orangey you know street lights and along the main road at the back and the car park was quite dark cos there were quite a lot of trees that were sort of on that corner, and so the car park was quite dark and then when you actually got, you came down a ramp, or down some steps into the sort of area in front of the apartments and you know they were, there were sort of lights, you press a button and they come on for a certain length of time,
1578 “Did you play tennis yourself”?
Reply “Yes, ”.
1578 “Did you take your own equipment”?
1578 “Did anyone else in the group take their equipment”?
1578 “When I say group, sorry I mean racquets and so forth”?
Reply “Racquets and stuff, yeah, yeah we took our racquets, nobody else did, on Wednesday night I didn’t go to dinner cos I’d thrown up the night before, you know it was just another weird thing about holiday cos I’m never ill, neither is Matt,
as long as I’ve known him I’ve never known him be sick, erm”.
1578 “So you, on the Wednesday evening then, you stayed in the apartment with Grace”?
Reply “Yeah, yeah. I remember reading my book on the sofa for a while and then think I, I went to bed but it would have been quite, you know it would have been about nine, cos I’d been up most of the night before, erm and I mean I know that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that to Madeleine and Sean had you know, said they’d been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where erm, they’d said they’d been crying and, and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I you know, I was trying to think whether I’d heard anything but”.
1578 “On the Wednesday evening”.
1578 “Who said they’d been crying sorry”?
Reply “Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they’d been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANN’s said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they’d seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didn’t hear any, well you know, I didn’t hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she’d wake up sort of six o’clock most mornings and we’d always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she’d be invariably screaming her head off, so”.
1578 “On Wednesday evening”.
1578 “When you were poorly, what time would Matthew have gone down to”?
Reply “About half eight”.
1578 “About half eight”?
1578 “And do you recall what time he returned”?
Reply “No but it was quite late that night, it was later than any of the other nights”.
1578 “Why was that”?
Reply “Cos they’d gone to the bar after dinner and had a couple of drinks there, whereas you know, all the other nights we just got up from the table and went, went back to bed, so you know, it might have been about midnight or half midnight, as opposed to you know, probably about eleven I think when maybe they might have gone back to our rooms, back to the apartments”.
1578 “Did you hear the patio door slide next door for example”?
Reply “Mmm no, mmm no”.
There was just never anyone around, that was the thing you know, it was just like dead the place really, you know which is why we, kind of all comfortable in leaving the children and going back and checking them, cos if it had been really busy, we wouldn’t have done that, you know if there’d been lots of people milling around all the time, it wouldn’t have felt right, I mean the place was empty”.
Pourtant elle a peur du noir dans le parking.
at about ten thirty, Madeleine and Ella and their sort of group came to have a tennis lesson as part of their crèche activities, and Kate didn’t have her camera and Jane was there then as well and Jane took some photos of both Madeleine and Ella, that’s one, that poster of Madeleine with the tennis balls, that sort of pictures”.
Ce n'était sûrement pas jeudi, jour de voile mais mercredi ? Kate dit que c'est elle qui a pris la photo.
we went to Dave and Fi’s you know, for lunch as usual, Dave and Fi’s apartment,
Mais non, ils ont déjeuné chez les TB, rupture de la norme, les WP n'ont pas déjeuné avec eux.
we ended up going down to the beach perhaps about, must have been about four, half four, something like that and Diane and Fiona and Lilly and Scarlet came down as well, can’t remember where Dave was, I think Dave had gone windsurfing, yeah he, he was down at the beach as well, he’d gone windsurfing, so we just headed down to the beach, it was a kind of a much warmer day than it had been previously, Matt and Russell came in from their sail and Matt had fallen overboard and Russell had managed to go back and rescue him so, cos it was, it was quite windy and I think they were quite big waves and Matt couldn’t see the boat and it was like, well this will be the story of the holiday, you know, the story to tell the grandchildren which is, you know which is what we said at the table at dinner that night, , ,we were there (Paraiso) for quite a while, certainly ‘til about six, six-ish, half six maybe”.
when we were on the beach, we, I think we saw Kate going for a run,
1578 “Did you see her run back”?
Reply “Yes, saw her run both ways”.
1578 “How many occasions did you see Madeleine on the Thursday”?
when she was doing the tennis, having her tennis lessons, as part of her activities
Sauf que l'activité du groupe de MMC, ce jeudi, n'était pas le tennis.
1578 “Is that the last time you saw her”?
Reply “I think that was the last time I saw her yeah”.
Mais c'était la veille...
Les matchs de tennis du soir étaient programmés à 6h30, ils avaient demandé de commencer à 6h à cause de la toilette et du coucher des enfants. Donc le social tennis avait été avancé à 6h. Ils n'avaient plus trop envie d'y aller, mais ils avaient demandé de changer l'heure... Donc ils y sont allés, mais en retard.
in the evenings, they had social tennis, which I think started at six thirty and went ‘til seven thirty and we said that we’d like to go but it wasn’t a great time for us cos it was bath time and getting the kids ready for bed, so we asked them if they could move it forward, so they said they couldn’t sort of bring it forward to five thirty but I think they brought it forward to six o’clock for us, and I think, so, so that on Thursday night it was men’s social and , although I think it was probably about six thirty when we were still down at the beach, we’ve always kind of said, oh well you know, should we go to social tennis and we kind of said well you ought to because you know, they moved it deliberately for us, so Matt, Dave and Russell headed back up to the apartments, we kind of followed, I don’t know, ten or fifteen minutes later,
1578 “To where”?
Reply “Er up to, where the tennis courts were, , so we headed up there and the kids just played on the swings and slides while the boys played tennis”.
1578 “So who was there at that point”?
Reply “ in terms of us coming up from the beach, there was Jane, Ella and Evie, Fiona, Diane, Lilly and Scarlet, Grace and I and then when we got up to the tennis courts, Matt, Dave, Russell, Gerry were there, playing tennis and I think there were a couple of other holiday makers”.
1578 “So Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were already playing tennis”?
1578 “And you joined them”?
Reply “Yeah, we went up there to play, we just stopped watching and supervising the children, and then I think shortly after we got there, or as we were getting there, Gerry said that he was gonna go back and help Kate get the kids ready for bed and help Kate get the kids into bed, so he went then,
Est-il allé jouer seulement pour alibi et est reparti aussi vite qu'il a décemment pu ? En tout cas cela n'a pas de sens avec David allant voir si Kate a besoin d'aide et revenant au moment où Gerald s'en va !
and Matt, Dave and Russell carried on playing, I think with Dan who was the coach, and we, the children played on the slide and stuff for a bit and then we headed back into the apartments to get them ready and left the boys playing tennis”.
1578 “So what, what time would you have arrived at the tennis courts to watch them playing”?
Reply “I think it would probably have been about seven, maybe about ten past seven”.
Selon les autres témoignages 18h20/30.
Kate and the twins and Madeleine weren’t there,
maybe about twenty past seven, I don’t remember him staying that much longer after we arrived there with the children, sort of decided to head off, yeah so it’s probably about twenty past seven, quarter past seven,
Si, conformément aux autres témoignages, Gerald est parti vers 19h, alors femmes et enfants sont arrivés vers 18h40.
we headed back, yeah probably about half seven, twenty to eight “Who’s we”?
Grace and I went and Jane with Ella and Evie to theirs and Diane and Fi
1578 “Leaving the men to continue”?
Reply “Yeah continue their tennis. Ella came and had a bath with Grace in our apartment, you know we often kind of went into each others apartments, sauf les MC, sort of around bed time you could see the tables at the Tapas, I remember seeing Gerry and Kate sort of walk into the Ocean Club and across to the Tapas, we went out the front, the patio doors were locked, we went out the front door, locked that,
at about five to nine, Matt said just he’d hurry the P*, he said he’d just have a listen outside the windows of the apartments,all the shutters were down”.
that was different to the other nights cos you know, we hadn’t done that before you know, that hadn’t been part of the routine, sort of listening, even listening at other people’s windows, but you know, we’d all pretty much just arrived at the tables and , so you know, it was just kind of a quick check really”.
Elle est en train d'essayer de dire que cette simple écoute et aussi cette écoute des autres étaient hors routine ! Or c'est précisément cela le baby listening, c'est comme la surveillance auditive assurée par les WP !
he was back at the table by probably nine, or you know and and then a couple of minutes later, Gerry got up to go and check cos they’d been, you know by that time, they’d been at the table probably for about half an hour I suppose, twenty five minutes maybe”.
and then Jane went off at about ten past nine to check on Ella and Evie,
Gerry had come back before Jane had, you know he’d only been gone a few minutes he said he’d met Jez on the way back, shortly after he got back, Jane got back,
about twenty five past nine, or half past nine, Matt and Russell got up and said that, no I think I said I’d go and check on Grace and Matt said he’d go and then Russell said that he’d go and check on Evie and Ella as well at the same time, and Kate got up to go and check on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine and Matt and Russell said oh you know, do you want us to do it, we’re going up there anyway
N'y allaient-ils pas de toutes façons à chaque ronde ?
so, she said yes and she said that the patio doors were open, so just to go in that way, so they headed up there,
Rachael est la seule qui dise que Kate a dit que la porte-fenêtre était ouverte. Ne l'a-t-elle pas entendu dire qu'elle se demandait si c'était bien, après avoir raconté l'épisode des larmes ? Par ailleurs, si Kate doit dire que la porte-fenêtre est ouverte, c'est que ce n'est pas notoire...
Matt came back about five minutes later, you know said to Kate that everything was okay, “It’s not your evidence, it’s what he’s told you”.
he and Russell went up and they were going to call at Gerry and Kate’s on the way but for some reason didn’t,
Bizarre car ils auraient pu sortir par la porte parking... Selon GMC cette porte n'était pas verrouillée.
they went round the back, Russell went into their apartment, Matt went into ours, went back to get Russell, that’s when he discovered that Evie had been sick, he went back round through the car park and out down the road, up the back steps into Gerry and Kate’s apartment, through the patio door, noticed that the door of the apartment was open, sort of half open
The door to the bedroom, the twins bedroom and Madeleine’s bedroom, and I mean afterwards you know, he said he thought that was unusual because he thought the door would be shut, cos I mean we always shut Grace’s bedroom door,
Unusual ? Il y a une norme universelle ?
we always shut it but yeah I know some people would kind of probably just pull the door to, but he didn’t expect it to be as wide open as it was, he said you know from kind of standing close to the doorway, he could see that the twins were in their cots and there was no sound, so he just assumed everything was alright, he didn’t put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kate’s room, just saw there was a double bed there,
Mais non ! Deux lits jumeaux ! Il ne met pas sa tête à l'intérieur de la chambre des enfants, mais il regarde dans la chambre des parents !!!
so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, but he didn’t actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not”.
Goodness ! Comme elle n'était pas dans la chambre des parents, elle devait être dans sa chambre !
1578 “He didn’t open the door”?
Reply “He didn’t open the door any further no”.
we only really went to see, to look, actually look at Grace because you know Matt had been sick and I’d been sick and she’d sort of seemed to have had an upset stomach, but otherwise you know normally if everything was quiet, we wouldn’t open the door really,
Un peu contradictoire avec ce qu'elle a suggéré plus haut, que normalement ils entraient.
Jane ate her dinner and then she went up to relieve Russell, which is like our standing joke of the holiday,
D'un drôle achevé !
and so Russell came back and he’d ordered steak or something but they couldn’t do another one
Absolument pas ce qu'ont dit DW et .... Ils ont redémarré la cuisson suspendue.
and brought him his food, we’d all finished I think, so he was eating his dinner and must have been about five to ten then or ten o’clock,
Rachael calcule l'heure selon le programme tous les demi-heures et non selon une montre.
so Kate said do her check and within a couple of minutes later she came back and shouting followed her and Gerry, up to their apartment and I remember sort of standing at the bottom of the steps, I didn’t go into the apartment, Matt and Russell might have been having a look in the garden, and then Matt and I went round and went to our apartment to check on Grace,
donc personne n'a grimpé les marches. Matt et elle sont allés à leur appart, puis Matt est parti, a dû rencontrer David de retour de la direction du Millenium et ils sont allés près de la piscine où Ricardo les a vus. Puis Fiona est revenue de son tour, a dit à Matt d'aller à la réception principale tandis que Rachael prévenait Jane.
Matt sort of went off to sort of look a bit more and search and he, he went down to call the Police at the main reception of the Ocean Club, and I went to tell Jane what had happened, I think it must have been after we checked on Grace and come out and I think perhaps Kate and Fi were standing by the window, like on the outside of the apartment and no, Kate, I think Kate had said you know, somebody’s taken her, cos the shutter was up and the window was open, yeah, I think it was then that we kind of realised that she’d been taken, as, you know, as opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just wondering where people were,
C'est ce que dit Kate, les persiennes et la fenêtre ouvertes, qui font réaliser à Rachael qu'on a enlevé Madeleine. C'est ce qu'elle raconte à Jane à 10/10:15 et ce sont les persiennes/fenêtre qui font que Jane raconte Tannerman : ce ne pouvait être Madeleine parce que GMC revenait de sa ronde (comment l'aurait-elle su ?) et comme il était dans la rue il avait certainement vu l'homme ou alors personne n'aurait pu prendre Madeleine si rapidement alors que GMC venait de sortir de l'appart (comment le saurait-elle ?).
Rachael n'arrête pas de dire n'importe quoi, elle se corrige parfois : Matt est allé au poste de police, non à la réception principale. On sent qu'elle a pensé et essayé d'imaginer ce qui avait pu se passer. La personne (le ravisseur) ou fut extrêmement rapide, ce qui ne semble pas vraisemblable, ou était dans l'appart quand GMC est entré.
Jane a dit à Fiona et à la police dès qu'ils sont arrivés.
and then, and I remember then going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and the window was open and the shutter was up, and then Jane said to me that when she’d come back to do her check, she’d seen somebody carrying a child, walking kind of across the top of the T junction, as she, as she’d been walking up from the, from the Ocean Club, we had this discussion between ourselves, it couldn’t have been Madeleine because Gerry had only just checked and he was standing in the road and surely he would have seen, or you know surely somebody couldn’t have taken her that quickly cos Gerry had literally just come out of the apartment,
what time did Jane tell you this”?
Reply “It must have been about, ten past ten or something, quarter past ten I guess”.
who was present when she was telling you this”?
Reply “No just me, cos Fi was with Kate and, and Gerry and, well with Kate and Gerry I think and all the boys had started to look around and started to, Matt had gone to the Police Station to, no gone to the Ocean Club to phone the Police”.
somebody would have had to sort of be very quick, or have been in the room when Gerry had gone in, we didn’t talk about that at that time but afterwards, we basically came to the conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room when Gerry had gone in to check”.
I think she told Fiona, as soon as the Police arrived she told the Police”.
“I got to the bottom of the steps and Dave and Fi and Gerry and Kate were already sort of on the balcony, had maybe already gone inside,
I don’t remember looking there at the shutters at all,
the shutters were there, at probably a car park level but you know there, there was quite a big drop off the car park”.
Shutters à 2m des siens... Si elle était inquiète pour son enfant logiquement dès l'entrée dans le parking elle aurait dû regarder sa fenêtre.
Russell and Dave kind of went off and looked just around the roads”.
I didn’t want to leave Grace,
I was kind of talk to Gerry and then every now and then I’d go back and check on Grace, maybe about ten thirty or something, Gerry and I looked at, up at the stairwell and kind of across all the floors of the block that we were in, and that was really the, that was all the searching that I really did, just up the stairs, I think they were five floors or something”.
about half ten or something like that, and then”.
1578 “What was Gerry saying”?
Reply “ I don’t know, I don’t remember, no I don’t remember in particular, ”.
stood by Jane and we were just waiting for the Police to come, which you know took ages, I remember ringing Matt at least once or twice to say you know, look have you rung them, where are they, and I think at one point he did come back up again and the Police still hadn’t arrived and I think Gerry’s told him to go back down and ring them again, they didn’t kind of come and park in the car park,
I think it was probably about half eleven, quarter to twelve,
La GNR est arrivée vers 11h
I mean they took a good hour or more than an hour to, to arrive,
Elle affirme ça sans même savoir à quelle heure et qui a téléphoné à la police.
I think they arrived just before midnight that sort of time and it was uniformed GNR, uniformed guys, you know I think they went to Gerry and Kate first of all and then , and then I remember them coming, I mean obviously Jane wanted to tell them about seeing this person carrying a child, and by that time there were lots of people milling around, nannies and lots of Mark WARNER staff and people from the village, kind of the head guy or, but he may be a bit more senior, he had a blue uniform on I think, long boots, and Jane went off and told him about seeing somebody carrying a child away, I don’t know whether it was before that, it was either before that, or maybe it was at that time, maybe it was while Jane no, because at some stage pretty much, I think it was round about the time when the Police had arrived that, because obviously they couldn’t really speak English, they turned up with MURAT and there was a lady called Sylvia who worked for Ocean Club, she sort of organised the cleaners, or something like that and she kind of came up with the Police and Robert MURAT was there as well and you know he said that he was English but he spoke Portuguese and”.
it was about midnight, half past twelve, it was you know very shortly after the Police arrived, I think they’d been to Gerry and Kate and then they headed our way, think it was about half twelve, and yeah MURAT introduced, well you know he said, hi I’m Robert and I speak Portuguese and you know, can I help translate, and introduced himself and I shook his hand and then Sylvia as well with the Ocean Club, introduced herself Russell came up then as well, and you know we were just sort of, but there were lots, lots of people, not just the Police and Robert MURAT and Sylvia, there were lots of other people sort of hanging around I think at that time, Russell got Robert MURAT’s mobile phone number, I mean I know Russell thinks it was the next day
I think at that time Russell got his number and put it into his phone
1578 “Is that what you saw”?
Reply “Yeah, but cos it’s almost a year ago now, I mean you know, Robert MURAT was definitely there, I’m absolutely a hundred per cent certain about that, I’m sure it’s in my Portuguese statement that MURAT gave Russell the phone number that night, I’ve absolutely no doubt that he was there,
Jane a dit à un des GNR, il y avait Sylvia et Murat qui vers minuit et demi s'est présenté comme interprète et Rachael lui a serré la main. Il y avait énormément de monde et bien que Russell dise que ça s'est passé le lendemain, Rachael pense que Russell a enregistré le TM nb de Murat cette nuit-là. Elle dit qu'elle l'a vu (mais l'examen du TM de ROB a montré que c'était le lendemain).
Rachael jure que Robert MURAT était là, elle est 100% sûre comme le sont tous les gens qui ont vu Madeleine aux quatre coins de la terre.
Après avoir dit qu'elle pouvait voir les portes-fenêtres, elle admet qu'elle ne pouvait voir que le haut.
Rachael, à ? , a appelé une amie dont le mari était à BBC News pour demander que la disparition de Madeleine soit dans les nouvelles. Des journalistes de BBC News 24 l'ont rappelée.
Elle dit qu'ils pouvaient occasionnellement (pour aller se baigner dans la piscine) laisser la porte-fenêtre ouverte, car il n'y avait rien à voler dans l'appart.
Jusqu'au 3 mai ils (le groupe) ne surveillaient que leurs propres enfants, donc Matt et elle n'allaient voir que que leur fille tous les 20/30 minutes. Mais le jeudi pour une raison étrange (que Rachael ne cherche pas à expliquer) il y a eu beaucoup plus de mouvement et beaucoup plus de rondes que les autres nuits et en outre Matt a écouté tous les enfants (y compris les TB) à 9h, puis a vu les MC en plus de sa fille à 9h30.
Ils ne voyaient les MC que si David et Fiona étaient dans les parages. Ils n'étaient jamais allés chez eux.
Elle prétend que GMC a quitté le tennis à 7h20.
I could see the patio doors of ours and Gerry and Kate’s”.
well kind of the top half really”.
Was there any point during the meal that evening when you, when you consciously looked over at the patio doors, just from a security conscious point of view”?
I might have done but I didn’t specifically think you kind of feel comforted don’t you if you can see, you know if you can see something”.
1578 “Of course you were safe in the knowledge that yours was locked”?
Reply “Yes I mean if they’re unlocked, I don’t know whether I’d have looked up any more, I suppose maybe I would have done, I don’t know, I mean that’s yeah, I mean ours were locked so”.
they only had one set of shutters in their room and we had two sets
1578 “Are there any street lamps in this car park area”?
Reply “No, there were street lamps on the road,
on the night that Madeleine disappeared, on the Thursday, a friend of mine, or friends of Matt’s and mine, James XXXXXXX’s a BBC News I rang his wife Kath cos I had her mobile number, basically to say you know that Madeleine had gone missing, was there any way that we could get it on the news Kath put me in touch with him and I spoke to him and I spoke to a couple of people on the BBC News 24 desk, midnight after midnight and then James rang me and I think I rang him back and then a couple of people from the BBC News 24 rang, but that was the Thursday night”.
we left the patio door unlocked occasionally if we were just popping out to the pool and nipping out the back doors, the patio doors was the easiest way if we were all going out there was nothing really in the apartment to steal,
the bedroom windows and shutters were down, the shutters were down the whole time and the windows were shut, the only other window to open was the patio doors, which you know were obviously open when we were in the apartment, you know cos we sat outside on the balcony quite a lot”.
until the Thursday, we only checked on our own children, so Matt and I just checked on Grace and that would of you know, every sort of twenty to thirty minutes,
on the Thursday night you know it worked slightly differently and there was much more movement and much more checking than there had been on other nights for some strange reason, I mean not for anything particular but just that’s the way it happened,
up until that night, each family had only checked on their own children, whereas on the Thursday, you know Matt, Matt checked on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine,
et les Tanner girls la première fois et les Mcs children la deuxième
we weren’t sort of really close friends with them and saw them by ourselves, we’d only really see them if Dave and Fiona were around,
“Have you ever been with Gerald and Kate at their home with their children”?
about twenty past seven G went back to help Kate put the children to bed,
Gerry went off and did his check, think he was probably away about five minutes after he’d talked to Jez as well on the way back and then , and then Kate left just before ten, went up and came back, well she was probably away about five minutes, maybe slightly longer, remember I was sort of avoiding being there really, just, you know it was just awful”.
I do remember Kate saying that she hoped the children were okay because they’d said that last night they’d been crying and they kind of said her, ‘Mummy, where were you’, so she sort of hoped, she hoped they were alright,
there’s absolutely no way that they’d they didn’t do anything to Madeleine and there’s just no way that they could have done and you know, if, even if they had, there’s just no way that somebody could come and sit at the table and just behave normally”.
quarter to ten maybe Russell came back, and they cooked him a fresh meal Mais non, ils avaient suspendu la cuisson de son steak.
ce n'est pas ce qu'elle a dit plus haut.
Elle dit n'importe quoi, Russell n'a mangé que 3 bouchées, il ne pouvait pas être en train de dîner quand Kate a annoncé (pourquoi annoncer ?) qu'elle allait ronder.
and as he was, as he was eating that, Kate said she’d go and check and that would have been about five to ten, ten o’clock, so she went off and then came back, sort of five, ten, be about five past ten maybe and came back saying Madeleine’s gone and then we all got up Non, Russell n'a mangé que 3 bouchées.
Madeleine and the twins were basically in the room next to Grace,
did you see Gerald leaving the table during the meal”?
about five past nine I think”.
1578 “How long was he absent for”?
Reply “I don’t know, it would have only been about five minutes, seven minutes maybe,
1578 “Did you see Jane leaving the table during the meal”?
Reply “Yes at, not that long after Gerry had got back, oh no, no, no Gerry hadn’t got back, not that, not that long after Gerry had gone, so”.
1578 “What time”?
Reply “I mean maybe about ten past nine”.
Matthew when he came back the second time after he’d been into Grace and then into the twins and Madeleine, he just said to Kate all quiet, everything’s okay,
Quand Matt est revenu de sa supposée ronde, I remember him saying you know it was all okay, all quiet”.
what did Kate say when she got back”?
“Madeleine’s gone, Madeleine’s gone, she repeated it twice, she didn’t actually get back to the table, she kind of was about three quarters of the way down the path that came from the Reception towards the Tapas and she shouted, ‘Gerry, Madeleine’s gone,
my initial reaction was that you know Madeleine must have got out of bed and you know possibly wandered into the garden or something like that, but then when, when Kate said that the shutters were up and the window was open, it was just a really horrible feeling, you know the immediate thought was that somebody had taken her,
I didn’t really want to go in (the flat)
James LANDALE, seeing if we could get it on the news, and made those phone calls, and then the PJ arrived chief political correspondent for the BBC News Channel
Incroyable comme ces gens vivent comme s'ils n'étaient pas dans un État de droit, appellent les journaux sans consulter les autorités.
In the morning, the Police didn’t seem to be around or, there didn’t seem to be any activity, Matt took Grace up for breakfast to the Millennium, and they came back, I remember having, sort of being on the phone a little bit to the BBC I think that morning, and then sort of various phone calls, I talked to Jon CORNER who’s a friend of Gerry and Kate’s, cos the BBC wanted a picture of Madeleine, and he had some photos that he was going to be able to send them,
during that two week period then after Madeleine had disappeared, how many times did you meet with Kate and Gerry”?
not that often, I mean we just seen them sometimes at the crèche when they collected Sean and Amelie, although quite a lot of the time Sandy who’s Gerry’s brother in law and Trish who’s Gerry’s sister collected the twins, I think one afternoon we kind of sat down in Dave and Fi’s apartment and talked to Gerry and Kate and they sort of told us you know what was happening and what was being done we saw them at church, until the media arrived, the place was dead really,
there were certainly areas you know near that car park and those apartments off, opposite where there are bushes, where somebody could hide and be watching us, you know and our routine was so set, you know every night we had dinner at eight thirty in the Tapas, and it wouldn’t have been hard to find that out,
Pendant les 15 jours qu'ils sont restés ensuite à PDL, ils n'ont pratiquement jamais vu les MC., trop occupés par ailleurs et pleins de famille et amis. Ils les ont vu conduire les enfants à la crèche ou à l'église..
Elle prétend qu'il y avait plein de buissons où quelqu'un pouvait espionner leur routine.
Mais leurs rondes n'étaient pas réglées comme du papier à musique et justement ce jeudi là différentes !
the only thing that really sort of bugs me is that you know Robert MURAT was there that night and for some reason he said he’s not but you know, when he was arrested, or taken in for questioning, I mean had a really uneasy feeling about him on the night when I met him and I said this to the Portuguese, I said it in my, it’s , I did three statements and the third one that I did was specifically about seeing MURAT on the night, and when I met him on the third of May and we shook hands, and he said he wanted to help, you know he was one of those people that I just kind of took an instant dislike to almost, just felt really uneasy about him and he just came, he was just sort of very over familiar and kind of wanting to be in the thick of things, and I just thought that was slightly odd behaviour,
Rachael fait une fixation négative sur RM, elle dit qu'elle avait décidé de dire à tout le monde qu'elle n'aimait pas Murat qu'il la mettait en transe et alors, elle allume la TV et le voilà conduit au commissariat, ce qui l'a rendue malade.
Jane à qui Bob Small a parlé de faire le coup du van, a parlé à BS de ce qu'avait senti Rachael, l'envie de vomir, le malaise, la détestation, etc. et de la présence de Murat près de la scène du crime la nuit du 3. Du coup BS a dit à Rachael qu'elle devrait en parler à la PJ. À ce moment-là Rachael dit qu'elle ne savait pas qu'il disait qu'il n'était pas là. Elle ne sait plus quand elle a su. Ils sont revenus au Portugal pour la confrontation, pour voir s'il allait craquer. Trois contre un. Mais il n'a dit que des mensonges et pourquoi cela n'a pas été rapporté dans les médias ? La police n'a pas fait grand chose, la police avait l'idée fixe de coincer Gerald et Kate et c'était dans toute la presse, mais n'a rien fait alors que cet homme était près de la scène de crime et rien dans la presse.
and you know I, you know didn’t think sort of anything of it really at the time, just some you know, a bit odd, and then we saw him again, I don’t know which day it was, it must have be, it wasn’t, it was either, I think it might have been the Saturday I was coming back from the Supermarket with Russell, I think maybe with Fiona, don’t know whether it was Fi but Russell was definitely there and we saw him again and he just kind of said, ‘hello and how’s things going’ and then he was in the church on the Sunday I think, the first Sunday after Madeleine disappeared, and I just had this funny feeling about him and because when Jane had seen this man carrying the child, when we’d been discuss, you know when she told me that she’d seen somebody carrying a child, she said at the time she thought it was odd but you know, kind of as you’re wandering about every day, you see lots of things that are odd but you know, you don’t really sort of act upon it, so just cos I thought that MURAT you know just gave me a funny feeling, I thought I’d just tell everyone but I just thought you know, he was a bit strange or he just made me feel uneasy and I was literally about to do that and I remember I went for a run along the beach and came back, and this is on Monday the the fourteenth, the day that he was arrested or whatever, as I went for a run, came back, thought I’ll just, you know had a shower and stuff and thought that I’d go and tell everyone that you know I just didn’t like him and had this uneasy feeling about him and I switched on the TV and he was there you know, being taken off to the Police Station, which you know, made me feel quite sick, it was a horrible feeling, anyway that was kind of the end of that, and it was only, and then it was, and then the next day the only reason that sort of me and Russell and Fiona ended up doing statements about seeing Robert Murat on the night, was that Jane was talking to Bob Small the next day about doing this sort of, I think it was connected to that surveillance thing she’d done, I think it was on the Sunday, and she’d mentioned to him that you know, obviously when I’d seen Murat on the TV, I’d said oh you know, he was there on the night and you know we spoke, it was only cos Jane mentioned that to Bob Small that he ended up sort of calling back later on and saying actually you know, you’d better talk to the Portuguese about that, you know at that time, we didn’t know that he was, I mean I didn’t know that he was saying he wasn’t there on the night, that only came out I think, I don’t know even if I knew about that before I left Portugal, , so then you know, and then we, Russell, Fiona and I went back to Portugal to do that sort of sitting in the room with him, to see whether he’d kind of break under the pressure or whatever, I mean he didn’t, you know he was just telling lies about being there on the night and I, you know nobody, oh I don’t know, I presume that has been followed up but it just seems quite significant, I don’t know why it hasn’t been posted in the media, it doesn’t seem to have been pursued, which kind of makes you think that the Police haven’t really done much about it, you know they’ve kind of gone after Gerry and Kate and that’s been all over the papers and you know, there’s this man who was there on the night, who’s telling, you know, who’s lying about it and nothing really about that’s come out, you know in the Press we were made out to sort of be the bullies in the, that stand off with him you know it was all very controlled and you know, just yes he was there and he was saying he wasn’t you know, there was no shouting and screaming or anything like that which the Press made out to be, but you know he was there and the Police were there with him on the night as well, you know the GNR, I think he was translating, and yet you know he’s saying that he wasn’t there and everyone seems to believe that, or that’s you know, that’s my impression anyway”.
Rachael a manifestement beaucoup de mal à se repérer dans le temps.
Elle n'hésite pas à accuser RM, elle va même plus loin, elle accuse la PJ de s'être acharnée sur les innocents MC au lieu d'examiner le monstre RM et elle accuse les médias d'avoir passé sous silence les mensonges de RM. L'extraordinaire, c'est qu'elle n'a pas le moindre doute.
(the carrier) he looked sort of Mediterranean or Portuguese just because you know the Europeans tend to wear their hair sort of you know, longer at the back, whereas you know most British men have it all sort of cut in and short.
Voilà qui confirme que ces gens-là avaient une connaissance de la géographie à revoir.
Dommage qu'on ne sache pas comment étaient habillées les boys TP.
she didn’t describe the pyjamas to me then, it was only really, I think it was the next day or perhaps even the day after that, that Jane, Fiona and I had a conversation about the pyjamas that the child was wearing, and Jane had said that they were sort of white with sort of pink flowers or something on and they had a bit of a, like a trim around the bottom, and Fiona said she’d asked Kate about the pyjamas, you know, what sort of pyjamas Madeleine was wearing, and sort of later that day I think you know, Fi came back and said basically Jane had described the pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing, so you know, that absolutely convinced us that this person walking away was carrying Madeleine,
it must have been on the Saturday, that the pyjamas, Jane described the pyjamas to Fiona and Fiona found out from Kate, what Madeleine’s pyjamas were like and they were the same as the ones that Jane had described”.
David avait vu le pyjama lors de la fameuse scène des anges... Blanc..
it was probably about ten fifteen, twenty past ten,
there was just Jane and I”.
1578 “Do you know if she had told anyone else about that sighting prior to telling you”?
Reply “No she wouldn’t have done because I was, you know I were literally, I went to tell her that Madeleine was missing, she didn’t actually know Madeleine was missing ‘til I told her then”.
1578 “You must have known that the shutter was up and the window was open”?
1578 “Do you know who told you that”?
I remember kind of standing near the window with Kate and Fiona, so but I mean I don’t remember the specifics of anyone actually saying to me that, I think it was just sort of a general, Kate and Fi were sort of milling around outside the apartment, outside her and Kate’s apartment and cos I think at, either at that point or perhaps it was later in the night, you know Kate had tried to see whether you could lift the shutters from the outside, but which you could and they would stay up,
Tiens ! Cette créature est délirante
so I think, I don’t think anyone told me specifically that the windows were open and the shutters were up, it was just you know kind of listening to conversations and seeing Kate and Fiona, sort of outside the apartment”.
1578 “Did you at any point yourself see the shutters up and the window open”?
when Fi and Kate were outside, you know standing by the shutters, by the window”.
when would that have been”?
it must have been just before I told Jane that, you know we, Matt checked on Grace and I mean I, I did, I thought we’ll go straight to Jane and you know tell her that Madeleine was missing but if sort of Kate and Fi and you know Dave and Gerry might have come out of the apartment and sort of been standing around there and talking about this, these shutters being up and the window being open, and I didn’t, I didn’t have a conversation with anyone, I just heard them talking about it, so I think it was you know in that time between sort of you know five past ten and ten fifteen, but it wasn’t somebody specifically coming up to me and saying, ‘the windows were open and the shutters were up’.”
Invraisemblable discours ! Elle dit qu'elle a vu, d'abord, et puis dit qu'elle a entendu dire ensuite.
if by any chance they’d accidentally done anything to Madeleine or she was ill or you know something wasn’t quite right, I mean they wouldn’t have just left her and sort of tried to cover it up as an accident or you know, they would of sort of you know, come and got Matt and Russell and Dave and Fi, there were kind of six people there who if Madeleine had accidentally been bumped on the head or you know whatever the theories tried to revive a child, ”.
I just remember Grace falling over and sort of Madeleine going to pick her up and help her, Madeleine was always kind of the one who started that off, sort of say, ‘oh let’s play monsters’ and so you know it would be Matt or Dave or Russell sort of running around chasing all the kids, ”.
we’ve expressed our reservations about going to Portugal and about the reasons for doing a re-enactment, you know in a letter to Stuart Prior, I can’t really see how you know, what the purpose of it would be nearly a year down the line, you know there are lots, you know there are the full details about our movements that night and what happened and you know, there’s the time line that we prepared when we were out there which we thought was gonna be helpful for the PJ, and you know obviously since then there are all our statements and I know times might be slightly out and you know, but not, I don’t, can’t imagine they’d be sort of materially out, you know to make a huge difference, so I don’t really see one why it needs to be done at all and two why it has to be us, I mean you know, asking us as a group to go back and do that when it was, you know it was such a, an horrific event and certainly you know to be sitting around that table again and sort of pretending to go back and check the rooms and it would be, it would just be awful and you know, I mean much more difficult you know for Kate and, and Jane, you know than me anyway, don’t see why they can’t do it with actors”.
Il est remarquable qu'elle dise qu'ils ont donné tous les détails de la soirée alors qu'elle n'arrête pas de se contredire et de donner raison au MP. De fait il aurait mieux valu le faire avec des acteurs et en liaison directe avec eux au RU que de ne pas le faire du tout. À condition évidemment de pouvoir les ré-interroger ensuite sur les parts d'ombre.