08 - AVR 10 - Audition rogatoire Fiona WP

Audition "rogatoire"

10.04.08 

Voici un extrait, car cette déposition (90 minutes) est répétitive (cela fait partie de la technique policière) et parsemée d'interjections fort nombreuses qui n'ont pas été coupées dans la transcription (qui ne figure pas dans le DVD des PJFiles, mais dont l'authenticité saute aux yeux).

An interesting detail, which is revealed in these documents: all the English people, before and after the questioning, were given not only a copy of their preceding statements, but also a copy of the statements that had been made by the other members of the group.

(...) this doesn’t operate a baby listening service’, because I don’t think we would have booked it had we known that”.  

Il y avait vraiment chez eux l'idée d'avoir un peu de vie sociale. Pourquoi ne se sont-ils pas mieux organisés ?

(...) with our baby monitors we can at least sort of have a drink together on, on a, on a balcony and still be all together, you know, looking after the children, so that was our plan before going really, that’s what we’d do.

it worked really well and, you know, everybody was checking, had their own sort of, I mean, we didn’t really formally discuss what everybody was doing, we just all felt it was fine to sort of operate our own baby listening service, I guess that’s what we thought we were doing, what every Mark Warner holiday we’d been on before did. We didn’t, Dave and I and my mum didn’t because we, we brought our baby monitor, which worked, we’d tested it, it’s a digital monitor so it’s offering, continuous monitoring of sound every second and it alarms if it loses contact or anything, so on the first day we’d sort of tried that by the, you know, by the Tapas Bar and it worked, so we didn’t even go back and check our children, we took the monitor out, and very much felt we were doing what we do at home really, you know, putting them to sleep and listen, if they cried we’d hear. The others had, you know, decided they were sort of going back every twenty minutes, and checking on their own children. I think, on the whole, I wasn’t really aware of people cross checking each other’s children, although on the night and previous nights there would have been the odd occasion where somebody was, was, was going and saying ‘Oh I’ve listened in at your door and your kids are fine’ or ‘I’ve checked on yours and they’re fine’, so there was a bit of that going on, but, on the whole, people checked their own children. and, again, on the actual night Madeleine was taken, that was, was very much different, I think, to, to previous nights, in that, there was probably more cross checking that night”.

1485 “Who slept in bedroom two?”
Reply “That was Lily, she had a cot just there, there was Lily and there was a window”.
1485 “Okay. And bedroom one?”
Reply “Bedroom one, there was a big double bed, Dave and I, and Scarlet was in the corner in a travel cot”.
1485 “Okay. Where did your mum sleep?”
Reply “Mum slept in the living room, there was a sofa bed which she sort of pulled down and generally put that there I think”.
how did you leave the doors?”
Reply “We left them just slightly open”. about a third of the way open”.
what time the tennis started, I think it was about six o’clock, I think the slot was six until seven every night
Reply “The windows, to be honest, in Lily’s room, we didn’t ever check the window. another thing that you think of. I mean, when we arrived, we assumed it was sort of locked and closed and the shutter was down. And I think we only ever sort of slightly opened, it was one of these shutters where, sort of graded, you can open it a little bit and it just opens up with a few holes to let a little bit of light in but the whole shutter is still actually down. And that’s all we ever, we never opened the shutter, we just, we’d open it a bit in the morning to let a bit of light in and then shut it, you know in, in the night-time to the point where it would only have a very minimum bit of light coming in”.
As the crow flies, distance 30m
1485 “So, what about the windows, did you open the windows?”
Reply “Never opened the windows.

 We never touched the windows, so we never really opened the shutter all the way to open the windows or, or even, as I say, check them. I guess we assume, assumed they were locked”.

You say the only one that you used was the patio quite a lot?”
Reply “Yeah, the French doors were always locked and secured”.
“And the front door was always locked and secured”.
there was a security light, they were all on a timer switch, I think if you turned it on there was a light switch, you turned it on and it would stay on for, I don’t know, a minute or so, and then go off automatically. And it seemed, when those lights were off, it was very dark at night-time and it was, it wasn’t very, I mean, again, looking back, you sort of think, well it didn’t feel very nice at night-time, that side of the apartment, because it did feel quite dark and, I think, the wind whistled through the stairwell as well”.

So, to summarise, in the apartment you have got windows and the shutters but you never actually opened either?”
“Only enough to get a little bit of light in”.
people were going, you know, more sort of nine o’clock, then it’d be half nine and, you know,

I remember people clock watching, I was quite conscious other people were doing that, but I wasn’t part of that.
people were very stringent about getting, you know, as I say, clock watching and making sure they went”.
our kids never went to kids club in the afternoon”.
every day was very similar, and we did the same things so many times, I just find it hard to say to you I definitely”.
I can remember the Thursday very well, who was with me and who wasn’t, I think because I’d gone through that more. I’m trying to think if Kate and Gerry did and I can’t recall. I mean, on the whole, we didn’t see a lot of them until the evening, we didn’t see a lot of the kids. so I don’t, I don’t think they did join us. It tended to be more sort of Matt, Rachael and Russ and Jane”. I think the Wednesday night we’d stayed out and had a nightcap inside the, the bar area, because it was quite cold outside, and we had a coffee, we went inside and had a coffee and, a liqueur, but I’m pretty sure that was the Wednesday”.
it was supposed to start at half six andwe asked them to bring it forward so it fitted in more with the kids, so it must have started at about six o’clock. 

Do you recall on the Tuesday night, I believe, Madeleine crying or somebody from the McCANN’s apartment crying?”

Reply “I thought that was Wednesday night. You see, I mean, I only knew about that because on Thursday night Kate had said, as we were chatting at the table ‘Oh’, you know, ‘I wonder’, you know, ‘what’, ‘what she cried about’ or, you know, she’d asked Madeleine, because I think Madeleine had said something ‘Where were you mummy, me and Sean cried’ and, you know, ‘where were you’ and that had obviously worried Kate and she couldn’t get anything more out of Madeleine, Madeleine had sort of moved on and, you know, didn’t say anything more than that and wouldn’t say, you know, whether she’d heard anything or been woken up or whether she had just woken up herself”

So Kate told you that that happened on the Wednesday?”
Reply “Well she told me about it on the Thursday”.
(on Thursday)

I actually picked Scarlet up with Kate, erm, and I’m trying to think what the time, the times were. I mean, that day we had been sailing, I think we were supposed to be doing wind surfing, but that day the, as I say, the waves were too rough and we ended up, Dave and I, taking out a boat together. And, and that morning I think Matt came out as well and he was on a separate boat, I remember we were joking around with him quite a lot. And then we were drenched and really wet and really cold, so I think we actually came back to the apartment to get, you know, more clothes because were cold and hadn’t taken enough with us. Erm, and then, so that would have been, I don’t know, eleven, half eleven, that we were back at the apartment. And then sat, erm, on, by the pool for a bit with Dave and then we saw Kate and Gerry and we just sat and had a chat with them. And then it was time to pick up the kids, so Kate and I walked from the Tapas area over to the main reception, going between, you know, there was a sort of path that went between the other Ocean Club complex as well along the road, erm, and she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlet and then we walked back together and that was the only day we ever did, ever did that. Erm, and then when we got back they, you know, Kate too Madeleine to their apartment for lunch and, erm, I went up to ours for lunch. And that day, erm, I think was the only day that no-one else came for lunch, erm, tut, I think that was just me, Dave and my mum, and the others, Rachael and Matt, I think, had their lunch with Russ and Jane, erm, so those two families were together, Kate and Gerry on their own and us on our own.

Kate didn’t come (to the beach). They, they tended to use the kids club in the afternoon, for the twins as well as Madeleine, and they were the only ones really doing that, we didn’t see them because they had things booked to do in the afternoon without the kids and we didn’t. The men left probably about, you know, that being Matt and Dave and Russell, around five to six, six o’clock time. And the, you know, the wives stayed behind with the kids, they had ice cream and then we followed on about ten past six and we just walked back up to, to watch them play a bit of tennis and give the kids, you know, a little playtime.

probably by seven o’clock we were, me and my mum headed back with the kids to start bath time. and Dave, we left him playing tennis for a bit longer. I think we’d bathed the kids by the time he got back, probably ten minutes later.
and then I went for a run that night, after the kids were bathed”. about half past seven”. 
1485 “Where did you run?”
when you was at the beach, when you was all eating before?”
“Did you see Kate at all running?”
Reply “No. No, I, I know somebody did in the group, because they commented, but I didn’t personally see her run”.
they all went together about five to six, six o’clock”.
1485 “Right”.
Reply “I knew they were going to be a bit late, feeling it’s being a bit rude to not be on time when you’ve bought it back”.
once you had all finished eating, and you went to watch the men play tennis?”

I don’t know who was playing who, but there was certainly Gerry, Matt, you know, Russ and Dave, and typically being men, it was all quite competitive and, and far different to the women’s tennis. Kate and the kids, I think, as I said earlier, weren’t there

When did Gerry tell you that the kids were knackered and Kate was bathing them?”

Reply “I think that was something I learnt later or whether he told me at the time,

it wasn’t a surprise that they weren’t there. and I know Dave had said to me later, because he, after tennis he’d said he’d checked on Kate and the kids before going to tennis”.

he was saying how angelic they all looked and he said to Kate when we all sat down at the Tapas table as well and he was sort of joking how they looked like perfect children,
because they were all sat there, all clean in their pyjamas, having a story”.
when did he tell you?”
I think it was when we were getting the kids ready for bed and we were back in our apartment”.
1485 “Right. So what time did he come back then from his tennis?”
Reply “I’d say, if we came back about seven, he was about ten minutes after that, so about ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that”.

1485 “And then you went for your run. So he told you that before you went for your run?” nothing out the ordinary. As I say, at some point in that evening I was aware Dave had said he’d checked on, on Kate and, and the children, and that may have been after my run or before my run, round the corner. And just as we were approaching, probably outside kind of the, Kate and Gerry’s gate, that sort of area, we bumped into Matt who was heading back to chase us up,

I never went into Kate and Gerry’s apartment before the night, on Thursday”.

Reply “ Kate was to my left and that I’m positive of. and I think Gerry was certainly to my right, I think he was immediately on my right. I know Russell was opposite, he would have been about there. My mum was, my mum and Dave were sat, I think Dave was next to Gerry and mum next to Russell, they were certainly on that side of the table, yeah, I think it was Dave, I’m not a hundred percent on that. And then I think it was Jane and then Rachael. That’s how I remember it. And I think possibly we were slightly rotated that way actually, because I remember me and Kate pretty much with our backs, you know, to, to the apartments, so probably turn that round a bit actually. Yeah, Russell was probably, you know, more directly”.

1485 “Had Matt come back before Gerry went?”

Reply “ I don’t know”.

GMC left fairly soon after we’d sat down, I’d say about nine’ish”.

Reply “ you know, we’ve thought long and hard about this as well”.
I couldn’t tell you how long he was away, it didn’t seem any longer than, than any other check. But, I knew he’d met and chatted to Jez, because he’d came back to the table and said ‘Oh I’ve just bumped into Jez’ and he had been chatting, about the tennis there was nothing, nothing different about him or the way he was or what he said really. at some point, Jane, had left the table to go and check. she left some time after Gerry to check on hers,”.
1485 “What do you mean ‘left’, did Gerry come back before she went then?”
Reply “No, no, I don’t think, I, I can’t be sure, I know what happened and I know what they’ve said, you know, they’ve said and what they’ve seen, so obviously I’m piecing together what, what I know and I believe to be true, so, you know, you’ve got to understand that as well”.
after Jane, I think the next, the next people to leave were Matt and Russell together, and that, again, I would assume is around the sort half nine mark, just to fit in with the way they were checking the children. I do remember Matt coming back and saying well, you know, that ‘Evie had been sick so Russell was staying with her’, And I remember Jane wolfing down her main meal that had just arrived, really quickly and then sort of heading back to relieve Russell. I know everyone else has said this, because there was a lot of joking about Jane relieving Russell (laughs)”.
half an hour had elapsed and, plus, thinking we’d had our starters and the main meals were arriving, so that was, that all sort of fits in, in my mind, with, with the time. Russell had ordered a steak, I remember that, that night, because I had ordered a steak and they were really perfectly cooked and his arrived, obviously, and he wasn’t there to eat it, so they said they’ll keep it warm and I remember thinking well, you know, it’ll be really rubbish if you keep it warm. anyway Jane, as I say, wolfed hers down and headed back and then Russell came back to the table and, and I recall this because I thought how good the service was that they actually came to the table and said ‘Oh don’t worry’, you know, ‘we’ll cook you another steak’, you know, ‘the last one would be ruined’. So he sat down and there was a bit of a wait while they did another steak for Russell, and so that must be between sort of quarter to ten and ten, because I remember just before Kate returned to the table having, having gone to check on, on their kids, because

that was pretty much when Russell’s steak arrived, I remember that being at that point”.

“I remember the steak being here sort of just before Kate came back”.

I was aware she’d gone, at what exact point, again, it’s got to be between quarter to ten and ten o’clock, somewhere in that time period”.

but I do remember her coming back, you know, I never will forget”.

she sort of raced back and she just appeared at the doors of the sort of reception area and just shouted across, ‘She’s gone. Gerry, Madeleine’s gone’. And, you know, well you can just imagine the shock maybe. So everyone was just sort of still for what seemed like, sort of five seconds or so. Gerry jumped up and went ‘She can’t be gone’ and raced off with Kate. And obviously we all followed, bar my mum, who I had said, I had the baby monitor, our baby monitor, and, plus, at that point, I just thought well, you know, the assumption was that she must have just wandered off, so I said to mum, you know, ‘You stay put here just in case Madeleine comes down to the pool area’ and gave her the monitor, our baby monitor, and said ‘You you listen out for our kids’. So we all were sort of racing behind Kate and Gerry, back up to the apartment. we didn’t go in at that point, I think Kate, Gerry must have rushed in with Kate and pretty much immediately Dave, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions just to do a search, you know, again assuming that she must have just wandered off. so, you know, I don’t know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did”.

1485 “Yeah”.

Reply “And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’. and I, I don’t know what Matt, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’. Gerry had come down at that point. They hadn’t found Madeleine, panic was starting really. after that really I stayed with Kate for the rest of the evening, I didn’t, other than going onto their sort of balcony and out the front area of their apartment, I was with Kate. and Gerry, he was to’ing and fro’ing, in and out, in and out. it was just awful”.

I had disbelief, thinking she’s got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she’d found when she’d gone back, which was that the, she’d found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that’s what she was telling me and I was like ‘They can’t have done. They can’t have done this’, you know. when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, Madeleine’s bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn’t stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn’t stir at all, which that was, that was odd. we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I’ve already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn’t a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside”.

“I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn’t what had happened and what could have happened”.

I’ve never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I’ve seen a lot of it in my job. she, she was just bereft, she didn’t know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her. And the helplessness, of not being able to do anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. she was angry, really angry, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn’t know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying ‘I’ve let her down. We’ve let her down Gerry’, you know, ‘We should have been here’. she was praying a lot. I just don’t think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to phone the Police, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. you know, we’re all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be doing and, you know, what’s going to make a difference. And Kate’s ringing, Gerry’s ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don’t, they honestly just didn’t know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry’s in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking ‘At least I can pray for Madeleine’ and her way of feeling that she was doing something. but she wasn’t functioning”.

1485 “Did the twins wake up at all?”

Reply “They didn’t. They didn’t”.

1485 “In the aftermath?”

Reply “No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn’t, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn’t, you know, so much as blink”.

1485 “When you were with Kate in the aftermath, who else was in the apartment, I know you say that Gerry was coming and going, was there any other?”

Reply “Gerry was coming and going. Dave came in and, he came in initially with me, when I went to Kate, I don’t think he went in any of the bedrooms, I think he was just mainly in the living room trying to put together what they should all be doing really, he was talking more to Gerry, so he was in. I didn’t see Russell or any of the other group in, in Kate and Gerry’s apartment. Fairly soon after, a girl called Emma, who, I don’t know what her position in MARK WARNER was, she was sort of, I don’t know what you call them, she was mainly working at the reception area, just as a, I don’t know what you call her job title, she was sort of looking after everybody”.

1485 “Just one of the travel assistants or something, yeah?”

Reply “Yeah. huh, I mean, I don’t know what time she got there, it seemed quite early on, she was, she was in the room for the most part, it was me, Emma and Kate with Gerry and Dave sort of to’ing and fro’ing until the first lot of Police arrived”.

1485 “Did you speak to Jane during that time or was it after that you spoke to Jane?”

Reply “No, it was during that time and I think after I’d been in the apartment, I think the furthest I went away from the apartment at that point was just to go to the stairwell to check, because I thought nobody had checked, you know, up, going up in the building to see if she’d gone up there, and I’d started to go up the stairs and then Jane had come out and said ‘Oh Rachael’s already checked’ or somebody else was up there. And, at that point, Jane had sort of rushed out and had said, you know, quietly, sort of almost pulling me away from Kate’s door, ‘I saw a man carrying a child’. And the horror and realisation I think of what she had seen was quite evident at that point. And I took it as serious at that point, at what she was implying, that she thought she might have seen Madeleine. and I, in the panic, I just said at that point, I said, well the Police hadn’t arrived, I said ‘We’ve just got to tell the Police. We’ve got to tell the Police what you’ve seen’. And didn’t’ say anything to Kate or Gerry about what Jane had told me at that point”.

“It wasn’t a conscious decision, but Kate’s, I was just there with Kate trying to be a support and it was no way appropriate to be saying, you know, ‘A man’s carried Madeleine off’”.

I can’t remember her exact words, but it, it was, huh, the way she said it was urgent, it was, she was frightened and she said, you know, ‘I saw a man carrying a child and I think it might be Madeleine’”.

1485 “And did she say where she saw him?”

Reply “No, not at that point. This was all in immediate panic”.

And Jane, as I say, what I said to her at that point was ‘You’ve just got to make sure’, you know, ‘that you give that to the Police when they get here’”.

Rachael was around, in the stairwell, she’d been up I think looking on the other floors, everyone was trying to hope that that wasn’t the case, it sounds stupid now, but despite knowing even what Jane had told me, I was still hopeful Madeleine would be picked up, you know, by one of the MARK WARNER staff or, and I think, you know, even for Jane, that was even despite what she’d seen, she was still hoping it wasn’t Madeleine”.

“I went back to Kate. I mean, that, that was my main kind of role that night, again, was just, I was the only one really with Kate continuously for that evening and, as I say, at that point she was just in no state to be left alone and that was what I saw as my role really”.

“I didn’t do any phone calling and I didn’t, I didn’t really do any more searching after that”.

There were lots of, lots of phone calls going on with Kate and Gerry, of which, yeah, I, I heard snippets and bits, they phoned the family, I know Gerry phoned his sister, Trish, and he was just sobbing and hysterical on the phone”.

“At some point in the evening I was aware that, I think it was really the late hours of the morning, that, I think, was it Rachael who had contacted SKY. Bit I think at that point it was just, we just felt nothing was happening and, you know, you’re just desperate wondering what to do. And I think I was aware that at some point, I think SKY News it was or BBC, one or the other, had been called by a member of our group”.

“But not Kate and Gerry, I mean, they didn’t”.

Two Policemen arriving, at Kate and Gerry’s apartment and they were Portuguese obviously, didn’t really speak any English and that was, that was awful again really, because we were obviously desperate and frantic and at that point time, we were just conscious of every second that was passing by and by that time it was over an hour, I’m sure, before they arrived, but it felt like longer. and they wanted to come in the room, obviously, and, you know, see where Madeleine had been sleeping and they were checking the shutters and we were just trying to get over the urgency and it just didn’t almost feel that they were recognising the urgency, although obviously with the language barrier, I can appreciate, you know, it’s very, very hard. and Kate was getting hysterical at this point, she, you know, screaming, because she just wanted somebody who she felt was doing, doing something that was going to make a difference. and then, they were the only two Police Officers we saw for, it seemed like quite, I don’t know, this is where the time gets difficult, but another hour I’d say, and then I was conscious of more sort of uniformed Police being around, sort of out the front. I mean, we were to’ing and fro’ing between the front of the apartment and the back of the apartment. And, there were loads of MARK WARNER staff obviously running around the streets, they kept coming up the stairs at the back saying ‘Have you checked the apartment’ and we’re like, you know, ‘Yeah, she’s not here’. and there were some other locals who were all trying to be helpful, some helpful, some not. There was a woman who worked, I think she was work, had worked in the bar in Praia da Luz and she had actually almost invited herself up onto the balcony and was just quite drunk and not being, just not saying anything very helpful and I remember getting quite cross with her, saying ‘Look’, you know, ‘Why are you here’, you know, ‘If you’re going to be helpful get out and look for her’ and, and I remember Gerry actually asking her quite politely if she wouldn’t mind just leaving them. I think she was the only one really that, that actually came anywhere near the apartment that wasn’t one of us or a Policeman. I was conscious, yeah, of a lot of Policemen in the, I don’t know what you call them, the GNR or, they had the boots, the long boots and the uniform, so they were milling around the front and the back, again, all speaking Portuguese, we didn’t really understand, you know, what they were saying or what they were doing.

Ils ne comprenaient pas ce qu'ils disaient, donc ce qu'ils faisaient.

and I think, as I’ve said in my other statement, that’s when I, around that time I saw Robert MURAT and that was at the front of the apartment. A I say, I’d been to’ing and fro’ing between the front and the back and I’d come out of the front, really just to see if anyone knew, had any information of what was happening, and, Robert Murat actually walked over to me and shook my hand and introduced himself, and told me that he was, that he was a local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation then, you know, he’ll be there to help us. And I withdrew from him, I didn’t, I don’t know why specifically I remember him, I mean, I haven’t got a very good memory for faces, I think the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly, because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint mais non, he had glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe it was my assumption that he was with them, yet he was saying he was a local, and I didn’t quite, in my mind, I said, well how come you’re a local living down the road and you’re here in plain clothes yet you’re saying you’re with the Police, it didn’t, it just seemed a bit odd, and he seemed overly EXAGÉRÉ in my face, I can’t think of a better way of putting it, he was very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people away from the apartment, any extra people that weren’t really needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and Kate’s state, so I didn’t really want somebody who I didn’t know, in there, and I think I said in my previous statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me uneasy”.
Tout cela, ces impressions, datent très probablement du lendemain matin.

1485 “Had you seen him before he introduced himself?”

Reply “No”.

1485 “Ever?”

Reply “No”.

1485 “During the time that you were there?”

Reply “No. No, and I didn’t see him again. I was aware, I mean, as I say, on the balcony you could see down to the street and I was aware of him, being around after he’d introduced himself and, again, he always seemed to be with the, these uniformed Police, in their vicinity, I wouldn’t say he was with them, I don’t know what his role was, but he was certainly around, but I didn’t speak to him again”.

1485 “So a one and only time?”

And exactly where did that conversation take place?”

“It was kind of outside, Rachael and Matt’s apartment, in the front”.

he sort of came from the stair, where the stairwell was, that direction, and I was coming out of Kate’s, apartment”.

“He was already in the apartment block when I met him so”.

1485 “Alright. And you say he was in front of the local GNR?”

Reply “Yeah, they were behind him and, as I say, it was my assumption he was with them”.

1485 “Yeah. Did you actually see him or hear him speak to the local Police?”

Reply “No”.

1485 “Did he actually offer you any assistance, any service or, I know you are saying?”

Reply “Saying translating, that was what he said to me. I mean, he did introduce his name and I couldn’t have told you it was Robert Murat, I couldn’t recall his name at all, but I recognise him”.

1485 “Right. Oh I see. So when he told you, he was a Robert Murat, and then you realised who he was later on from the?”

Reply “When I realised, in fact, it was the day he was made, brought in for questioning and we were watching SKY News, it was the afternoon in my apartment and Russell was in the apartment, and obviously, you know, again, we were all very shocked, there was any progress, who is this man, and he was on telly and it showed a picture and I was like ‘Oh, is that the guy that was around on the night acting as translator’
Le seul traducteur, cette nuit-là, était Silvia Batista.
 you know, ‘with the squint’, because you couldn’t see in this picture, and Russell said ‘Yeah, yeah, that’s him’, but I hadn’t seen him at all in the days following, you know, Madeleine’s disappearance, that, that on the telly was the next time I’d seen him”.

“And that’s again what makes me positive that he was the man, because, as I said, the squint was apparent on the TV and I said ‘Oh is that’, and Russell should remember this, you know, ‘Is that the guy that’s got the squint’ and he was like ‘Yeah, yeah, that’s the same man’ and I said then ‘Oh, yeah, I saw him on the night outside’. But at that point we’d, again this is something that’s baffled me, why would we lie about it because at that point seeing him around the apartment after Madeleine’s disappearance doesn’t mean anything, and we didn’t know at that point that he had denied being there on the night, you know, we, we were just saying ‘Oh, yeah, he was around’, we’ve got no reason to, to make that up or lie, it’s of no consequence whether he was there or not afterwards, of implicating him in anything, so”.
Bien sûr, mais pourquoi ne pas admettre un souvenir décalé dans le temps, compte tenu du choc émotif ?

“What happened and when did you finally get to bed?”

Reply “It was after four o’clock, again, I don’t know, that, that whole period, it’s hard to sort of put a time to it. I remember it being after four o’clock, probably about half past four when we went to bed. But in that ensuing time the PJ had arrived, the plain clothes detectives, I think there was a couple of them and they’d been in the apartment and obviously they, at that point, had said they needed to close off the apartment or move the twins. so I’d suggested putting the twins up in our apartment, Emma, who was there, had arranged some of the MARK WARNER Nannies to get some extra cots and more bedding, and we set up the cots in our living room and a bed for Kate and Gerry as well, not that they used it, but, and then I think, I think they were Policemen, I can’t remember who carried up Sean and Amelie. and we sat on the sofa, me and Kate with the twins asleep on us for a while, and they didn’t wake up and, again, that was quite strange, even in the transfer and, and being handled by people that weren’t their parents, they didn’t, they didn’t wake up.

Quand même bizarre que la chambre 2 ne soit occupée que par leur fille Lily.

and we settled them down and made a bed up for Kate and Gerry and I think it was around sort of half four’ish we decided we should all try and just get, get a rest, because everyone else had gone, you know, it was just, again, it was that feeling of helplessness really, everyone had gone, you know, what are we supposed to do”.

Qu'auraient-ils fait là ? Si quelque chose se passait, ce n'était pas dans l'immeuble ni dans le resort.

Dave and I went to bed and we tried to sleep. I think about half an hour after that or an hour after that it was starting to get sort of vaguely light and Kate had come into the room just said ‘Look, will you’, would I look after Sean and Amelie and said they need to go and look for Madeleine and, which I did. And I was conscious that, you know, Kate and Gerry were wrapped up warm and went out on the streets looking for Madeleine. and the next morning is, again, it’s a bit of a blur really, I know Kate and Gerry had to go in for questioning, to the Police Station. you know, we helped with, with the twins in the morning and tried to keep everything as normal for them as possible. and then Dave went in with, the others for the first lot of questioning. And, we were sort of left at the MARK WARNER for the day, that following day. so that’s, I don’t know, time is sort of stagnant really, that following day, it’s sort of hard to put times to anything. But we, we, me, my mum and Rachael and Russell didn’t go in, we were expecting to go into the Police Station at any point really, expecting, you know, we would have to do a handover with kids, waiting for the other to get back, but they didn’t actually get back until quite late, and then, you know, we went in the evening”.

Kate, at dinner, asked what my opinion was on, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying ‘Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or’, ‘or locking it and, you know, finding that we’re not there and the door’s locked if she woke up’, because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh”.
“No, that was the point, I think they said they’d left it, well she’d said she’d left it unlocked”.
And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said ‘Oh it will be fine’, you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn’t something she was quite easy with, that’s the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, ‘It’ll be fine. It’ll be fine’. Because I don’t imagine she would have said anything otherwise if it hadn’t been on her mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking up and them not being there and she’d mentioned that in the context of that conversation”.

Sean and I woke up and we were crying mummy and where were you’”.

“And what did you say?”

Reply

“She didn’t seem frightened or anything, I mean, that is what Kate did say, you know, it wasn’t something that had frightened Madeleine. I said, in the context of the holiday, I guess I just said ‘Oh I’m sure they’ll be fine’”.

1485

“Right”.

Reply

“Much to my regret”.

Fiona dit qu'elle ne sait plus quand cette conversation a eu lieu mais que c'était plutôt au début de la soirée, dans la première partie de la soirée.

it just strikes me, in awful retrospect, that, you know, Kate, I think, had done something that she wasn’t quite happy with, in leaving the doors unlocked. And that is something again that she is going to beat herself up about for a long time to come because, you know, you, you like think that you acted on your instincts and I think her instinct was that that was something she wasn’t really happy to do

Kate said she was trying to get more out of Madeleine, but as kids are, you know, they sort of move on and she wouldn’t really, she couldn’t really get out of her what had caused her to wake up or, or, you know, whether she’d just woken up anyway and, you know, she never, never got that out of Madeleine”.

Peut-être aussi qu'elle n'a pas insisté, craignant de découvrir que Madeleine avait compris qu'il n'y avait personne la nuit dans l'appartement.

“She didn’t seem frightened or anything, I mean, that is what Kate did say, you know, it wasn’t something that had frightened Madeleine. I said, in the context of the holiday, I guess I just said ‘Oh I’m sure they’ll be fine’”.

I’d say it was in the first half of the evening”.

Kate, I think, had done something that she wasn’t quite happy with, in leaving the doors unlocked. And that is something again that she is going to beat herself up about for a long time to come because, you know, you, you like think that you acted on your instincts and I think her instinct was that that was something she wasn’t really happy to do”.

the Saturday paper, I had read it and, it said in this paper a description of what Madeleine was wearing and it put white pyjama bottoms and I read it and thought, well that’s wrong, because I know I was with Kate on the night as she was giving her description and I knew it had a pattern on the bottoms and a frill at the bottom, so I remember being a bit, huh, well that’s just wrong, you know, how can they get it wrong, this is a National Newspaper. But then Jane came later that day and read the same report and she said just off the top, you know, after reading it out loud, ‘Well maybe it wasn’t Madeleine I saw then, if she was wearing white pyjamas, because they weren’t white pyjamas’ and I said ‘Well what were they’ and she said ‘Well they had, I’m sure they had some sort of pattern on them and a roll-up or some detail at the bottom’. And at that point my blood ran cold, because they were Madeleine’s pyjamas. And, you know, that was the description she gave,having not seen Kate, having not talked to, to anybody about what Madeleine was wearing. Ce n'est pas vrai du tout.

how did you check your children?”

Reply “ as I said earlier, we had brought a monitor with us, which we use at home, a digital monitor, and that’s what we chose to use while we were out there. We ascertained on the first day we were there that it worked, you know, from the distance that we were at, absolutely perfectly, we felt no apprehension at all about using that. So, as I drew in the diagram, we put the base unit between the two rooms, on the top sensitivity and I sat with it at the table literally plonked right in front of me for every evening that we were out”.

And you used it every single night that you were?”

Reply “Yes”.

1485 “Did it ever go off or did the children ever wake up?”

Reply “Never”.

Reply “In fact it’s probably the first week we’ve had where our children, Scarlet being the youngest, actually slept for a whole week all the way through, I just think they were so exhausted”.

Okay. Do you normally use it when you are travelling?”

Reply “We’ve used it before, we haven’t really done what did in Portugal before, i.e. leaving the apartment to, to go and have a meal. we’d used it, as I said, the year before we’d gone to Greece, and at that point Scarlet was about three months old, and in that scenario, we’d taken it with us, we didn’t really use it much. I remember Matt and Rachael using it, for Grace, because she was quite young at the time, in that situation they were in a different villa and they came to our veranda in the evening for a drink and used it much like we did in Portugal. But we didn’t really need it much, I suppose, in Greece”.

we left the beach at around sort of just after six, ten past six, something like that, so we would have been back, it would have taken us a good ten minutes to walk back”.

about twenty past six, twenty-five past six”.

husband ’d gone earlier with, with, Russ and Matt, they’d all left earlier to go for the tennis, the men’s tennis”.

“What time would the tennis have started then?”

Reply “I think usually it was half six. This is where, you know, I can’t remember whether we changed it the night before as well. I can’t remember on Wednesday whether it got moved back to six o’clock. I’m pretty certain on the Thursday it was moved to a bit earlier”.

“Six until seven”.

we went straight to the tennis courts area, the play area with the children, and we would have stayed there, you know, for fifteen, twenty minutes, before going up to the apartment. and we went straight from the play area to the apartments”.

I certainly would have left before seven to go back and start bathing the kids”.

1485 “Right. And when you were at the tennis courts, exactly who was there?”

Reply “ the people that walked back with, with me, so Rachael and Grace and Jane and the kids and my mum. and then the men were playing tennis, so Gerry, and Russell and Gerry, sorry, Gerry, Russell, I’ve forgotten all their names (laughs), Dave and Matt, so they, yeah, they were all participating. I couldn’t tell you when, if, if any of the other women left, what time they left to sort their kids out, you know, maybe a bit later, it’s not we all went together or anything, but I couldn’t tell you who left when”.

1485 “Yeah. And was it just your group that was playing tennis at that time?”

“Erm”.

, there was this other Doctor, guy, he played a lot of tennis, I think he might have been there, he was a young chap,”.

so there was this other guy and a guy called Steve, I think, possibly.

there was a tennis tournament taking place the following day, wasn’t there, was there nobody practising or?”

David left, as I see it, around six, and then I wouldn’t have seen him again until I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and he, he didn’t sort of return until after seven, ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that, so, yeah, that’s where he was. And then the rest is what he’s told me, again, I couldn’t tell you times, but I know before he went, went to tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, and saw them all in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between, you know, six and half past”.
he said it was before tennis”.
you can’t say one hundred percent, can you, if he was on the tennis court between six and seven, can you?”
Reply “No”.
1485 “You can say he was there between quarter to seven and seven?”
Reply “I feel I’m answering Dave’s question for him”.
1485 “Yeah”.
Reply “Because all I know is that he, he said to me later on that evening that he had been in on Kate and the kids. now I’m taking that as before tennis, whether it was that Gerry stayed on playing tennis and Dave came back earlier and popped in before coming up to our apartment, I, I can’t, I can’t be a hundred percent on that”.
I believe that’s for Dave to say what he did really”.

During your stay at the Ocean Club holiday apartment, did you ever leave your apartment doors and windows open?”

Reply “No. No, I mean, generally there was always, if we left the apartment open, there would have been one of us in it,

because there were three of us and only one key, if we were doing different things, we did, occasionally, during the daytime, leave the key under the mat at the front door just so my mum could get in and out. only during the day we sometimes did that”.

when you were actually in your apartment, you know, locked up for the night?”

Reply “Yeah”.

The French doors were fairly flimsy, précaire I think they were just, as I remember it, just one of these little vertical sort of slots that go up and down and that was it, you couldn’t really lock it any more than that. as I say, the shutters that were on the windows, we never really touched. The window in the kitchen, we did open that, just when we were cooking and stuff, but we would close that and lock it, I can’t remember what the lock mechanism was on it”.

the front door had the double lock on it and we generally, used the double lock once we were in for the night and when we were going out”.

we used to double lock when we were going in and out”.

we were in for the night we just locked it from the inside.

the French doors really, if they weren’t open they were shut and locked, we didn’t, we didn’t ever leave it open really”.

was kept Lily’s ajar, and Scarlet was in the room with us and we probably shut that when we were asleep”.

Ours was the only door really shut, as I said, Lily always like to have a bit of light coming in from outside so she always sleeps with the door ajar,”.

“The time when we were leaving the kids, the doors were both ajar, Scarlet and Lily’s room”.

it was usually my mum, who took it upon herself, because she carries a handbag everywhere, to keep, keep the key if we were all out together”.

I know K and G had been coming, using the front door, which is the door with the key, to go in and check the children, and then, at some point, that changed to using the back door, just because, as you can see from the map, it was quicker for them to do that and easier to get in, then just sort of quickly nip in through the French doors and out again. I couldn’t tell you what point that was, but I know, I know there was a conversation about, oh we’ve started nipping in that way rather than going the long way round.

it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very different, she is very cautious, Gerry, you know, is probably more sort of happy to, relax and go with the flow and that sort of thing, Kate is very, very much more cautious. So, you know, I think, as I said earlier, I think that was something she wasn’t quite happy with”.

Ça ne colle pas du tout avec le fait d'avoir opté pour le confort de la proximité au détriment de la sécurité.

1485 “Did she say that she had confronted Gerry over that matter?”

Reply “No. No, I mean, I think they’d discussed it and, you know, she, she had, huh, it sounds like it happens a lot, when I say, you know, about deciding to go on holiday, but, you know, he’s very much ‘Oh it’ll be fine’, you know, and she was like, you know, yeah, most of the time he’s probably right, you know, she worries a bit too much and he worries less. But, you know, I don’t think there was an issue between them about it but, as I say, Kate was, it was just something that I’m sure was on her mind that night”.

Quand on pense à des choses horribles, les choses horribles finissent par arriver ?

the room Madeleine, Sean and Amelie were in was always left ajar, I think for the same reason that we leave our kids doors open, they liked a bit of light they didn’t like it to be shut fully, so I was aware of that. And then I know that the French doors, although not locked, were closed, and I think the curtains pulled to as well. and I know there’s been a lot, when Kate, the night when we came back and Madeleine was gone, and I think that was something that had, there had been some discussion about, because she’d, the door had slammed, when she’d gone in, had slammed shut, and she’d gone back to look, thinking she’d left the French doors open and, in fact, they were shut and she thought, well where’s the breeze coming from, and it was then that she’d opened the door to realise that the window was open and that’s why the door had slammed”.

Un claquement de porte qui n'est pas arrivé à MO.

as far as I’m aware, Russ and Jane and Matt and Rachael still went the long way round”.

it was only because Kate and Gerry’s apartment had that little side gate”.

it made it so easy for them to go in that way, whereas, for everyone else, there wasn’t really that option of nipping in a back gate”.

actually the only way you could get in, well the easiest way of getting in was the long way, was going round to the front so”.

“They were all downstairs but there wasn’t access to, direct access to the back gardens”.

Là aussi elle rectifie no access en direct access.

Because there’s, there’s a long wall and at each end of that whole row of apartments you can get in the ground floor apartment through a gate, so Gerry’s and whoever would have been at the far end, but the ones in between, there was no, no direct, access”.

Fiona se trompe complètement, chaque patio a une grille d'entrée.

you just assume everyone’s locked their apartments and gone. And, as I say, I assume Kate and Gerry had even done that, it was only that night I realised that they hadn’t or I’d even thought about the fact they were going in the French doors and you couldn’t lock it from the outside, but I was aware their system changed and I was aware on that night that their apartment was unlocked”.

once we’d left the room, we didn’t go back until it was time to go back, on any of the nights. We didn’t hear any crying, we didn’t hear any noises to, to raise any suspicion to go back and check. So, no, we didn’t”

And I’d just like to say, our monitor, if it loses any contact with the base unit at all, it, it alarms, so, you know, we knew we were in continuous contact with the children”.

“I don’t think we have answered many questions to be honest, you know, before”.

1485 “Coming here, yeah”.

Reply “Yeah”.

the bit with Dave checking the children, I would like to highlight that, in the fact, the reason he mentioned it is because they were so, it was a picture of an idyllic family. And I think that is important because of all the Press and, you know, what they’ve been accused of”.

I think the picture Dave described could not be further from what has been suggested happened to Madeleine”.

“And that is important I think to put in and that is why he thought it was worth a mention to me”.

Le problème c'est qu'il lui aurait dit avant la disparition.

the reason I guess Gerry had asked him just to check Kate was okay, bathing three kids on her own

Vraiment pratique de faire ça tout seul pendant que le père joue au tennis.

and didn’t want him to come back, and he just found it funny because it couldn’t be further from, the truth, you know, what Gerry had suggested, you know, that she might be needing help, she’d sort of done it all and they were all shining, gleaming, happy children, you know, sitting down, lovely, all ready for bed. And I think that, you know, that was why he mentioned it, because it was a lovely thing”.

Reply “We said one before kids and then we went to Majorca, that was two thousand and five, September two thousand and five, for two weeks, with Kate, Gerry, their three children and then there were two other families, who weren’t on this holiday, I don’t know whether you want their names, but, we had a big villa and, you know, four families for two weeks and, again, had a, had a fantastic two weeks”.

Madeleine, on that holiday, Madeleine was in with Sean and Amelie, but they were in bedrooms next door, it was just a big villa so we were, we all had enough bedrooms to have the children in one room, adults in the one next door. but in terms of the evenings, we all just took it in turns to cook for everybody and then we’d sit either at the dining room table or on the patio and have our evening meal and go to bed”.

We had a hideous time with our eldest that holiday, because she didn’t sleep a wink for about two weeks, every night, so we were generally pacing around, on the outside of the villa”.

Thursday, that was a different day, in that, I’d only seen Madeleine when, as I say, when I walked with Kate, and we picked Madeleine and Scarlet up.

Did you see Jane leave the table, Sort of what time do you think Jane left the table?”

I, I’m guessing it was around nine o’clock, it was about, you know, it must have been pretty soon after Gerry left and I think for them, their check was, it would have been around nine o’clock, so it must have been around then”.

1485 “How long do you think MO was absent for?”

Reply “I’d say no more, what two, three minutes, I mean about as long as it took to walk there and back again”.

I think he had said, he, he had checked on, outside the windows of, of his apartment, then I think he’d popped into Russell’s apartment, he did say, you know, said that Evie had been ill, and I was aware that he had checked on er, Madeleine and the twins and that was maybe what was different that night as well that hadn’t really been done before, of him going in the apartment,

On se demande aussi pourquoi il faut entrer et faire une ronde visuelle si les P* se contentent du son de leur inter-communicateur.

I think he’d offered, and, you know, that, you know, they’d said, ‘Oh the French doors open you can pop in there’.”

Reply “Five to ten, I mean I know it’s ten o’clock when she came back, so a few minutes before that”.

Reply “ ‘She’s gone Gerry, Madeleine’s gone’, I’m hundred per cent SURE ? about that”.

I know those are her first words, I know there’s been a lot of reported since about people saying, you know, they’ve taken her and she did say those things but they were, you know, later as far as I’m aware, I didn’t hear anything suggesting anyone had taken her at that point and initially, you know, the, the hope and the automatic response was really that, that she had wandered away, you know, I, pretty soon after, I was hearing the words, you know, they’ve taken her and that the window was open, the shutter was open, and all that that implied, but those weren’t her first words and her first implication wasn’t that”.

we all jumped up, Gerry was first, he just sprinted off with Kate and they, they were ahead of everybody else, cos I had the monitor and mum and I just thought somebody ought to stay behind, I was probably latter in the, in the line, cos I just said to mum, ‘Stay put and see if she comes back, keep the monitor’ and then you know, me, Jane wasn’t there obviously, it was me, Rachael, er Matt, Russell and Dave that sort of, got to the part outside the apartment and that’s when we, we just said, ‘Right, let’s do a quick search, like you go that way, you go that way’.”

that initial search, it was as long as it took me to walk round, you know to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court and the, so you know, five minutes”.

Rachael might have gone in to check on, she went straight in I think to check Grace and stayed with Grace and it was just the other men and me and my mum had the monitor but yeah we all went on our own for that initial check”.

“Mum came up once I was in the apartment with Kate, er my mum came up to like, ‘What shall I do, I’ve waited’ and at that point I said, ‘Just wait with Scarlet up in the apartment’.”

I say the system that nobody was seemed to be arriving and you know, what was being done and the feeling of just nothing, nothing being done, the helplessness and that, that raw, raw emotion of just grief, of just terror and just praying, she was praying, she kept kneeling everywhere just praying and praying and praying and asking for a Priest and just wanted you know, everybody to be praying for Madeleine for her to be safe”.

Gerry’s side, he was just stunned like she’s got to be here, she’s got to be here, this can’t have happened, very, very much sort of almost denial, but then when he saw the room and sunk in what Kate had seen, he was convinced she’d been taken and at that point he was, you know was sobbing, him and Kate were just sobbing, clinging to each other and you know what shall we do, what shall we do, you know, Gerry kicked in to his sort of you know, action mode, which er he was ringing people, who do we need to ring, the British Embassy, I think he was trying to get hold of the British Embassy and just get somebody erm who was English speaking, who might be able to help, say early, I know he phoned his sister, he was phoning relatives, just telling anybody you know, you’ve got to help us, what can you do, can you think of anything, he was flitting in and out, I was aware, so I stayed in the apartment but I know Gerry was in and out, speaking to the Police when they arrived, you know they were, Gerry, his way of coping is to do, to, to feel like he’s doing something in a positive way and that’s definitely how he got through the night. I don’t know how he did the things he did, even made the calls he made”.

the first lot of Policemen arrived, which I think was around sort of between eleven, quarter past eleven.

the time when I came out and met Robert MURAT, I’m assuming that was sort of after sort of midnight, there and that sort of time because the uniformed Police were there, the sort of troops in their boots, I don’t, think they’re GNR, and then you know,

they couldn’t, they couldn’t rest and they were just, it was driving them up the wall, just sitting there and not doing anything and they wanted to go out and look and would we just keep an eye on the twins”. it was still very cold and, and dark, I think it was you know, between five and six,

Dave and I stayed on a bit longer that the others, twenty second of May”.

the others left on the seventeenth my mum left the week before,

1485 “You stayed in the same apartments?”

485 “They, they kept them on for you then did they?”

Reply “Yeah, yeah”.

they were just incredibly busy Kate and Gerry with all the Press that they were doing and the interviews and Police interviews,

they got moved to the apartment block that was sort of down from us, down the car park really”.

Kate would go from being incredibly angry and physically, just wanting to inflict pain on herself really and just being angry and frustrated that why is, why haven’t they got her, why haven’t anyone found her, just her being totally devastated that she wasn’t there, very withdrawn and just, say sitting there sobbing, Gerry again was, he just grieved in a very different fashion,, he did think right this isn’t going to get Madeleine back, this isn’t gonna help, you know these are things I’ve got to do to, to get her back”.

I don’t think he allowed himself time to, to sort of grieve for the fact that she wasn’t there”.

he’s a very upbeat person and pragmatic as well and he’s right, you know, sitting, sitting there crying isn’t gonna help bring her back, was constantly either on the phone or the computer, I think you’ve got to grieve you know and I think if you don’t, you think it’s all gonna build up and I was more worried for Gerry that, that he didn’t seem to be giving himself that time to, to be upset”.

1485 “Yes. I think, so you think he didn’t give himself time to, you think he was more in the motivation mode than in the, the grieving mode?”

Reply “Well the only thing, again it’s just a reaction to what’s been in the Press sort of doubting Jane’s statement, that I would say, I’ve never been in any, any doubt that what Jane has seen, she has never changed her story to me or to anybody in the group about what she saw on that night from day one and, and I think her bit of evidence is the most convincing, that I’ve heard out of any of us and the most accurate and the most convincing that I’m convinced that was Madeleine”.

1485 “How do you feel about attending that re-enactment?”

Reply “Well I’ve made my feelings clear in a letter, already. My reservations are, at this point, how doing the re-enactment is going to achieve that or advance the search in any way. And, obviously, there is a lot of apprehensions about doing it, just in terms of the media and the way we’ve been treated, the way the media would react to us doing the re-enactment, how they’d sort of physically actually manage to do a re-enactment without massive media intrusion, and how the information would be used, I mean, we all know that we’re telling the truth of our actions on the night and if doing a re-enactment were going to be for the purpose of trying to find holes or, you know, in our movements and statements and try and rubbish our statements, then we know that’s not going to help find Madeleine, because we know, we were there, and we know we’re telling the truth, so I wouldn’t be happy to do it if that was the reason for doing it. I’d just like to be convinced how it’s going to move the investigation on really, to find Madeleine”.

And, at the moment really, we’ve got no reason to trust the motives of doing a re-enactment when Kate and Gerry are still arguido and, if they’re arguido, I think we’ve all got to be implicated, because I just don’t see how Kate and Gerry could have done anything that’s been suggested without us all being in on it, you know, it’s just impossible”.

Donc si les MC sont encore témoins assistés, elle n'ira pas, car s'ils sont arguidos alors les TP9 doivent aussi être impliqués car FP ne voit pas comment ils auraient fait tout seuls.

as far as I’m concerned, I’d only do it if everybody else was doing it, otherwise it’s pointless. it would just be horrific, I mean, imagine, you know, Jane having to relive that, Kate having relive that, any of us having to relive that, you, you couldn’t do it without it being an emotional thing”.

in my eyes, doing it, it would be beneficial if actors and actresses did it because they don’t have that emotion and you can still direct them to exactly

Il faut bien être présent pour ça !

what you were doing and where you went and your movements. So, so I still don’t, we still haven’t had an answer to that really, that side of it”.

we certainly had a Portuguese mobile”.