Interview de Gonçalo Amaral
Porto Canal - 14.03.2014
traduit par Astro
Q : Do you regret anything?
Gonçalo Amaral : I would do exactly the same [today that I did then], with a small difference: I would not leave the Polícia Judiciária. It could be a problem for the Polícia Judiciária. I did think about it then, shall I leave or not, if I stay with the police I’m a problem for the police, or if I leave, I have all of the other problems.
I don’t regret what I did, I did it with conviction, I did it to defend the investigation model, what a criminal investigation is supposed to be. Earlier, you spoke about the politically correct, the politically correct policeman. It is my understanding that criminal investigations cannot be politically correct, because they can’t be concerned with politics. And what happened, and continues to happen, is that we have to be politically correct, subordinate to the English power. That happens, it happened on the 2nd of October [of 2007] at the Lisbon Treaty, there were discussions between José Sócrates, then prime minister, and Gordon Brown, the English prime minister, who told the newspapers that he had asked the Portuguese prime minister about the [Maddie] case. So even before that it was already a political case. And when politics intrude into a criminal investigation, nothing will end well, whether the criminal investigation relates to a homicide, a burglary, a disappearance, or corruption.Going back to the beginning of the question, I don’t have any regrets. I don’t have regrets because although principles and values don’t fill the fridge, I feel rich in another way.
Q : Was Maddie McCann abducted or is she dead?
GA : Maddie McCann disappeared and since that time she is – she died. She died that night. Those are the conclusions that are reached in the process itself: In September of 2007, the Polícia Judiciária concludes – and this is a conclusion within an investigation that was not over yet but has a principle there – it’s a sequence of indications that are collected which reaches the conclusion that it is very likely that she died. She died that night. The circumstances of the death are still to be determined. What mechanism – what happened for that death to take place is yet to be discovered.
Q : Was Maddie McCann abducted or is she dead?
GA : Maddie McCann disappeared and since that time she is – she died. She died that night. Those are the conclusions that are reached in the process itself: In September of 2007, the Polícia Judiciária concludes – and this is a conclusion within an investigation that was not over yet but has a principle there – it’s a sequence of indications that are collected which reaches the conclusion that it is very likely that she died. She died that night. The circumstances of the death are still to be determined. What mechanism – what happened for that death to take place is yet to be discovered.
And if the parents nowadays make us believe that their daughter is alive, or have to gamble on her being alive, they forget that right after the investigation it was them that were the first to signal death. They were the first to say that their daughter – that it was necessary for a coronel from the South African army to come with a miracle machine to find the body. So it’s the parents that invite him to come to Portugal, to find a body.
Later, years later they say that she is still alive. And now the Scotland Yard, apparently already with their agreement, or their tacit agreement, says that the child is dead. That is the obvious. What usually happens in this kind of situation – for years they have mentioned other cases – if a certain child disappears and reappears after several years, alive and even with children, with the abductor, then Madeleine may also probably be alive. But they forget a small detail. Actually, they don’t forget it, they just don’t enlighten us, because these people have all of the information, they have staff that works with the entire information, which is also a bit strange, but they forget a detail: all of those children that have reappeared, whether in Austria or in the United States, they weren’t three or four years old when they disappeared. They were all close to the age of 10. All of them were girls and close to the age of 9, 10. None of them disappeared aged 3 or 4. When an abductor makes a girl his slave, what we have seen is that the age is not 3 or 4, but much closer to adolescence. They forget that detail. I have no doubts about what happened to Madeleine McCann. Madeleine McCann died that day, that night, in that apartment, and her body disappeared.
Q : On what do you base that conviction?
GA : On many things. A series of indications, a series of contradictions, the witness statements of the parents, the witness statements of their friends, the traces that were collected with the assistance of special English dogs that never failed in the United Kingdom, they now work with the FBI. They never failed. At the time, we were introduced to several cases and situations, all of them they worked in and never failed. The possibility is that they failed in Portugal. Maybe it was the heat.
Q : Was there human blood in the car boot and inside the apartment?
GA : No doubt. Inside the apartment and in the car boot. That human blood, the English lab even says, there is a report in the process, that says it’s the daughter of – the daughter of Gerald McCann, it’s a descendant of his. Later on, they change the hypothesis, and say that the combination of the DNA may be from anyone. By coincidence, in that case the DNA is very similar, 90% similar to that of Madeleine McCann, but it could be DNA built by myself, by Júlio Magalhães or by you, and then it would result in that DNA profile. But the funny thing is that it results in the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann. It does not result in the DNA profile of Júlio Magalhães, or of Gonçalo Amaral or of Luís Filipe Menezes. Not even in that of the doctor who performed the test.
We have no doubts, and this was discussed even at the level of Portuguese justice, at the level of the Public Ministry, that there was an alteration at the English lab. The data was manipulated. The FSS, the British lab, which was already questioned over several situations, even concerning the IRA in Ireland, over bomb attacks, those traces, that way to find the DNA, to examine the DNA with low copy number, was called into question relating to traces found on a bomb in an Irish case. And that lab was called into question. But there is a situation, concerning the lab, which has to be taken into account. There are the registers that are performed by the technicians, by the scientists that examine, and we have to look at those registers, at what they wrote. On an everyday basis, as they examined the evidence, the traces that were sent over, what they wrote along. And then we see the result in that report that they sent over to Portugal.
Then there’s another situation. It is still possible to find out or to collect indications of whether or not the dogs failed. If inside that car boot – I’m referring to the car that was rented by the McCanns some 15 or 20 days after the disappearance – blood traces were found, traces that the lab says may be, although there is no full certainty, that may be from Madeleine McCann, hair was also found. Hair which the laboratory says, from its coloration, which is how this used to be done in the old days, by comparing the coloration, if it belonged to the person or not. Nowadays it is possible to perform, and then it was already possible, to perform DNA tests on hair. Some say it’s only possible to identify the DNA profile with the root of the hair, the English lab says it’s not possible because these have no root, therefore they don’t perform the test. That hair is in Portugal, it was returned to Portugal. They are next to the process. It’s simple: the Public Ministry, that has the investigation, should take that hair and send it to a lab in Europe or elsewhere, where that type of test is done, without the need for the root of the hair.
Q : That was never done?
GA : That was never done. It was never done and what is said is that there may have been a contamination. But we end up not knowing whether that hair belongs to Madeleine McCann or not. That’s another doubt to discuss, to clarify. Now, there cannot be a piece of evidence while we’re here talking about the man who died under the tractor and quit his job a month before because there was 5 euro missing –
Q : Why did neither the PJ nor the SY question the Smith family?
GA : It was on the day of the Lisbon Treaty, which happens to be my birthday, on the 2nd of October of 2007. It was the Lisbon Treaty, it’s my birthday on the 2nd of October, and I was “fired” from Portimão on the 2nd of October. And that is the time when we were preparing for the head of that family, a family of approximately 5, it was him, his wife, his son, his daughter-in-law, his daughter, to come to Portugal. On the night of the 3rd of May, at around 10 p.m., when they were returning from a restaurant in Praia da Luz, they crossed paths with an individual who was coming down a certain street towards the beach, carrying a child with her head on his shoulder, as if she was asleep. Later on they say that - they see the news, because on the following day they returned to Ireland – they say it may have been Madeleine McCann and the person who was carrying Madeleine McCann.
Le jour d'anniversaire de GA, il y avait déjà 15 jours que Martin Smith avait confié ses impressions aux Gardaï.
These people were heard within the process right away in May/June, they came to Portugal, they were heard, they gave a description of the person, physically, how he walked, they described his clothes, whether he was Portuguese or not, they said he’d be a tourist because he was tanned, not a Latin man, they also indicate the person’s age, the age of the child, approximately, according to her size, and that was it. It was only later, when Gerald McCann and Kate McCann leave Portugal to go to England, in September, after being heard as arguidos, when they flee, literally, they fled to England, and the English police followed suit, because they were here cooperating with us but then they also disappeared, and we concluded that the English police was in Portugal merely to somehow protect that couple.
But when they arrive in England, there’s an image that went around the world, which shows Gerald McCann coming down the stairs of the plane, the stairs that access the plane, and walking on the runway with one of the twins in the same position, in his arms with the head here [on the shoulder]. And what that family says is that this individual, from the way that he walks, the way that he carries the child, is the person that they saw on the night of the 3rd of May. They don’t say anything else. What happens? We initiated the diligences to bring them to Portugal, to hear him, it would be the father of the family that would come over, he was available to come, and everything was prepared. Authorizations from the PJ’s national director for them to come to Portugal, the tickets were about to be emitted, we still had to book a hotel, so it was only a matter of logistics.
And on the 2nd of October, after I was questioned by a paper, Diário de Notícias, about what I thought of the English police saying that Madeleine had been sighted in Morocco, I unburdened that they should worry about what really had happened to Madeleine instead of worrying about other situations because when the English police left Portugal, what was agreed upon between the Portuguese police and the English police was that the investigation had to move forward in terms of understanding how the death had occurred. The death of Madeleine McCann. And what had happened to the body.
We were not discussing abductions or that the child had been taken to become a sex slave, none of that. We were speaking about death and concealment of a body. And it’s on that 2nd of October that I leave. I left the investigation, it’s on that 2nd of October that Gordon Brown speaks with José Sócrates – it would be good if Mr José Sócrates would explain, if he is able to explain what happened – I think that his stance was one of – from what I could understand at that time, a stance of distance from the investigation, he didn’t give a lot of importance to Gordon Brown’s statement – Gordon Brown tried to involve the Portuguese prime minister in that controversy, so to speak.But the person that later substituted me understands that it is not relevant to bring the Irish to Portugal. And that was it. So never again were the Irish heard, they were heard through
Q : How is it possible that the English prime minister’s spokesman quit Tony Blair to become the McCanns’ spokesman within 24 hours?
GA : That’s another mystery within the mystery. And if we understand that little mystery, maybe we can understand what lies behind, not the disappearance, not the child’s death, but behind the protection – why protect this family, this couple?
Q : Have you noticed that couple’s power?
GA : Yes, I have. I even notice it in my bank account, in what I receive at the end of every month. This is what has been happening.
Q : Is it true that one of the group’s members had been denounced earlier on by another friend over behavior that could indicate some extravagant behavior in terms of a tendency towards pedophilia?
GA : There is a mysterious figure, it’s another part of the mystery that may even be related to Clarence Mitchell leaving the British government to support the couple. You can say it’s a conspiracy theory, but it’s not. There is a British couple, also doctors, who went on holiday with the McCann couple two years earlier, with the children, with Madeleine, and with other couples of doctors, including a gentleman called David Payne. David Payne is the last witness. He is the witness that says that on the 3rd of May he went to the apartment and he saw those children and that they looked like heavenly angels, they were very clean, very white, something truly heavenly.
This is the person that bathed, during these holidays that he organized, he bathed the little girls aged 2 and 3. Not only his children, but also the other couples’ children. And it’s under those circumstances and in comments that he makes during a holiday period, and according to the statement of Dr Katherine Gaspar, this is the name of the person that denounces, the statement is in the process – and this is something, if we have time, that I’ll try to explain. What she says is that he made gestures and asked questions about Madeleine McCann, to Gerald McCann, in front Madeleine McCann herself, who was then aged 2.
C'est la parole de Dr Katherine Gaspar contre celle des autres présents. Et elle a mis plus de deux ans à faire ce qui, du coup, semble une vraie délation.
Q : Did the investigation never explore the possibility of that person being a paedophile?
GA : Exactly, this is the question. That statement arrived in Portugal after I left the investigation. I left on the 2nd of October, they arrived a couple of months later. It’s a statement from Dr Katherine Gaspar and her husband, to the British police, on the 16th of May of 2007, two weeks after the disappearance, statements that the Portuguese police was not informed about, and which arrive in Portugal by mail, not by fax, underneath other documents, and those statements are loose, and someone with the British police, what he did was, here’s these statements, now you go and investigate, question. And never did anyone at the Portuguese police, those who substituted me, they didn’t question anyone. Neither did the Scotland Yard. Nobody interrogates, nobody investigates what is happening there.
And on the 2nd of October, after I was questioned by a paper, Diário de Notícias, about what I thought of the English police saying that Madeleine had been sighted in Morocco, I unburdened that they should worry about what really had happened to Madeleine instead of worrying about other situations because when the English police left Portugal, what was agreed upon between the Portuguese police and the English police was that the investigation had to move forward in terms of understanding how the death had occurred. The death of Madeleine McCann. And what had happened to the body.
We were not discussing abductions or that the child had been taken to become a sex slave, none of that. We were speaking about death and concealment of a body. And it’s on that 2nd of October that I leave. I left the investigation, it’s on that 2nd of October that Gordon Brown speaks with José Sócrates – it would be good if Mr José Sócrates would explain, if he is able to explain what happened – I think that his stance was one of – from what I could understand at that time, a stance of distance from the investigation, he didn’t give a lot of importance to Gordon Brown’s statement – Gordon Brown tried to involve the Portuguese prime minister in that controversy, so to speak.But the person that later substituted me understands that it is not relevant to bring the Irish to Portugal. And that was it. So never again were the Irish heard, they were heard through
Q : How is it possible that the English prime minister’s spokesman quit Tony Blair to become the McCanns’ spokesman within 24 hours?
GA : That’s another mystery within the mystery. And if we understand that little mystery, maybe we can understand what lies behind, not the disappearance, not the child’s death, but behind the protection – why protect this family, this couple?
Q : Have you noticed that couple’s power?
GA : Yes, I have. I even notice it in my bank account, in what I receive at the end of every month. This is what has been happening.
Q : Is it true that one of the group’s members had been denounced earlier on by another friend over behavior that could indicate some extravagant behavior in terms of a tendency towards pedophilia?
GA : There is a mysterious figure, it’s another part of the mystery that may even be related to Clarence Mitchell leaving the British government to support the couple. You can say it’s a conspiracy theory, but it’s not. There is a British couple, also doctors, who went on holiday with the McCann couple two years earlier, with the children, with Madeleine, and with other couples of doctors, including a gentleman called David Payne. David Payne is the last witness. He is the witness that says that on the 3rd of May he went to the apartment and he saw those children and that they looked like heavenly angels, they were very clean, very white, something truly heavenly.
This is the person that bathed, during these holidays that he organized, he bathed the little girls aged 2 and 3. Not only his children, but also the other couples’ children. And it’s under those circumstances and in comments that he makes during a holiday period, and according to the statement of Dr Katherine Gaspar, this is the name of the person that denounces, the statement is in the process – and this is something, if we have time, that I’ll try to explain. What she says is that he made gestures and asked questions about Madeleine McCann, to Gerald McCann, in front Madeleine McCann herself, who was then aged 2.
C'est la parole de Dr Katherine Gaspar contre celle des autres présents. Et elle a mis plus de deux ans à faire ce qui, du coup, semble une vraie délation.
Q : Did the investigation never explore the possibility of that person being a paedophile?
GA : Exactly, this is the question. That statement arrived in Portugal after I left the investigation. I left on the 2nd of October, they arrived a couple of months later. It’s a statement from Dr Katherine Gaspar and her husband, to the British police, on the 16th of May of 2007, two weeks after the disappearance, statements that the Portuguese police was not informed about, and which arrive in Portugal by mail, not by fax, underneath other documents, and those statements are loose, and someone with the British police, what he did was, here’s these statements, now you go and investigate, question. And never did anyone at the Portuguese police, those who substituted me, they didn’t question anyone. Neither did the Scotland Yard. Nobody interrogates, nobody investigates what is happening there.
En revanche, le fait que le LC n'informe pas la PJ est incroyable.
Dr Katherine Gaspar, who denounced Mr David Payne to the British police, was never heard within the Portuguese process. And she was never included in the rogatory letter that was sent by the Portuguese authorities. This is the truth. We have abductions and burglaries, but the things that are in the process are not investigated.
Dr Katherine Gaspar, who denounced Mr David Payne to the British police, was never heard within the Portuguese process. And she was never included in the rogatory letter that was sent by the Portuguese authorities. This is the truth. We have abductions and burglaries, but the things that are in the process are not investigated.
Q : This is never going to be solved, is it?
GA : I think that it will be solved. It will be solved as soon as there is the political will on both sides.
Q : If it turns out that Madeleine McCann was in fact dead, do you want to be compensated? GA : Well, if I use the McCann couple’s strategy, it has already been recognized. The Scotland Yard has already said that she is dead.
Q : If you had the same financial resources that the McCann couple has with their fund, would you have found the perpetrators?
GA : I would have done a lot to try to find the perpetrators. There is plenty of information that remains unexplored. But in our country it is difficult to investigate, because a private person cannot investigate.
Q : Were you removed from your post and sidelined until you left the Judiciary Police because you were too close to finding the truth?
GA : No, no. I left the investigation, I was removed from the investigation because the case had to be dominated politically. Just that. Because I opposed the archiving. I told directors in the Police directly that I did not agree with the archiving. They suggested to me, they told me that there are processes, there are investigations that do not end, that have no result. And that I shouldn’t do a lot. That I should consider the case had ended. I always opposed that. That is why I left the investigation, not because I was close to anything. I don’t see my leaving as being the result of someone fearing anything. The question was that the case is political. Only politics. It’s politics that is driving this matter. When politics enters the investigations, when investigations are politically correct, we get nowhere.
GA n'ose pas dire carrément ce qu'il insinue souvent, mais "je me suis opposé au classement" n'a pas de sens, le classement n'a eu lieu que 10 mois plus tard !
Q : Who do you think is the author of the crime?
GA : We can remain simply in the area of an accident. There’s people who are responsible. Those who were the guardians of the child certainly have some responsibility. What kind of responsibility, I don’t know.
Q : Maybe in seven years we meet for another follow-up…
GA : It’s a cycle. Seven years are a cycle in people’s lives. So they say.
