Jim Bohannon : Hello there and good evening and welcome to the Jim Bohannon show from Westwood One Radio. We find that Pat Brown is making a return visit to talk about her latest book; the different slide is that you may have trouble buying it. It’s an ebook called Profile of the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Recently you could buy it from amazon.com but, er, no more. We understand that the book is available from Barnes & Noble online, with their initials BN.com for their Nook, enook reader. Pat Brown, er, two stories who I guess...number one: The story of Madeleine McCann. And number two: the story of you and er, and er amazon. Er look, for those, let’s just start at the beginning, what is the Profile of the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann all about, let’s assume the people here have forgotten who exactly Madeleine McCann is.
Pat Brown : Right, er, Madeleine McCann was a little three year old girl who was on vacation with her parents, erm, Gerry and Kate McCann and their friends, seven of them, and there were also the brother and sister who were two years old and er, the McCanns and friends had a habit of leaving the children unattended in their vacation apartments while they went over to the bar restaurant for a few hours every evening and, the last evening, Madeleine disappeared and she has not been seen since, it’s been four years now and no one knows what happened to Madeleine.
JB : now you put together er, an ebook, a profile of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Before we get into all that you have put forward, deposit about the disappearance, what happened with Amazon?
PB : Well, what happened was... there’s a kind of controversy going on concerning the McCanns over the four years, er the controversy is: Did the McCanns have anything to do with the disappearance of their daughter or was the child abducted by some predator or child sex ring or somebody who wanted a little child ? Er, there’s two camps over this and there are a lot of suspicious circumstances, an abduction was never proved to have happened, so the McCanns became suspects in Portugal, what is called arguidos, and then they left Portugal and since then they’ve been looking for their daughter, they, they, they established a fund to search for their daughter and this was all going quite well, er but when people started speaking up saying, you know, some of us actually think that the parents might be involved, they were shut down because the McCanns hired Carter Ruck, which is like the biggest libel solicitors in, I don’t...maybe the whole world, but certainly in Britain, and they would sort of stick this law firm on anybody who said, hey you know, I question whether they could be involved.
They sued the detective on the case when he put his book out and got an injunction to get it off the market and so people have stopped speaking out whether, you know, about their opinions because they’re afraid of Cater Ruck, they’re going to get sued and so the media has no longer said anything negative about the McCanns, they never...they question nothing any more er, and so Kate just put out her book called ‘Madeleine’ and after I read her book I decided I would do what people wanted me to and put out a profile of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and, put out a theory of what I think happened based on the evidence that exists. And I did so and about five weeks after I put it up on Amazon it vanished and it vanished off of amazon.com and amazon.co.uk, that’s the British one, and of, out of Germay as well. So it vanished everywhere and people said, what happened to your, your, your er profile, your book? And so I wrote to Amazon and said what happened? Where’d it go? And they said they took it off for legal conflicts and I said well what legal conflicts are you talking about, and they said, well we need you to change the title and all the contents. [both laugh]
JB : Otherwise it’s just what we were looking for.
PB : : Exactly and so, okay, er do you want to explain this a little further? And then they sent me the letter that said they had been received a er letter from Carter Ruck, the solicitors of Gerry and Kat McCann, who said I had libelled their clients and therefore until we worked it out, the McCanns and I, and agreed that the book was not libellous they were no longer going to sell it. So that’s when it disappeared off of the market.
JB : Wow!
PB : : yeah! That’s rather interesting.
Jim Bohannon: You know, I was trying to think of another instance of something similar to this and I’m at a loss, I er, I don’t really know of anything quite like this.
PB : Yeah, well I think this is kind of a new problem with the sub publishing world, now I have two other books on the market published through...the last one came through Hyperion Voice and when I wrote that one which is called the Profile of My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths, came out in 2010, I did a lot of cases in that book and before they published it, their lawyers went through it with a fine toothcomb, they made me turn over all my files so that they made sure that the book was acceptable and couldn’t risk...everybody can be sued over it... so when Amazon saw that they already had Hyperion Voice saying it’s an okay book because our lawyers have already been through it, besides, you’re not going to get sued, we will. But with self publishing, where’s the gate keeper? So Amazon’s like ha, you know, your not, nobody’s looked over this book, there’s no publisher except you so quite frankly we’re running a business and we don’t want to take a chance with Carter Ruck. So it’s kinda funny people say when Cater Ruck comes after you, you’ve been ‘Carter-Rucked.’
JB : Interesting, so in this day and age what you’re essentially saying is that, that as we enter this whole new brave new world of the non ‘Gate Keepers’ that if you’ve got enough money and enough lawyers and a willingness to throw your weight around that you can essentially shut down your critics.
PB : Exactly and that’s what...that’s what’s been happening with the McCanns, they’ve effectively shut down anybody with an opinion that they do not like. And they don’t like mine.
Évidemment ils ne disent pas qu'ils n'aiment pas les théories qui diffèrent de la leur, ils disent que ce sont des mensonges et que seule leur théorie est valable, car "ils savent".
JB : I er, I must tell you that I got an email.
PB : Yes you did, I’m sure.
JB : I did, with a dot uk address attached to it...errrr...
PB : Mmm?
JB : [quoting part of the email]:
PB : Well that’s actually accurate. Sometimes you can’t disagree with people who hate you. But yes, I have blogged for four years. I have a blog called the Daily Profiler, it’s not very daily any more because I’m too busy but it’s more a monthly profiler now but I haven’t changed the name, er but I often talk about cases like I do when I do television, I do commentary, and I analyse different cases and I try to stick with: look at the evidence and here’s what I’m thinking and I try to put it, I always say it’s a theory, this is not fact, this is theory which is what all profiling is and it doesn’t say anybody’s guilty of anything. Yes, I have been fairly critical because from the very beginning there was something rather peculiar about the story and of course it starts with leaving three little children alone in an apartment unattended, which is called child neglect, so it’s kind of hard to be nice about that in my opinion.
Il faut reconnaître qu'il y a pas mal d'erreurs dans l'opuscule de PB, qui manifestement a été (bien) écrit en deux temps trois mouvements.
JB : Well, it, it is hard I suppose to do that ...er...among other things this email er they claim that your book is done in an effort to convince people that Madeleine is dead
C'est l'argument massue des MC. Passe encore que l'on propage des théories qu'ils se doivent de dénoncer comme mensongères, mais faire croire à la planète que Madeleine est morte, c'est les faire souffrir et surtout aniquiler leurs efforts inlassables pour sensibiliser la planète et l'amener à chercher Madeleine. Or on observe que depuis le début les MC se sont acharnés à maintenir en vie leur fille coûte que coûte, virtuellement dans les esprits, tout en, paradoxalement, prenant des initiatives (dont parle PB plus bas) qui la condamnaient à mort si, comme ils le disaient, on l'avait enlevée. Sans doute cela les a-t-il aidés à vivre. Mais Carter-Ruck ne s'embarrasse pas de psychologie.
PB : Well I...
JB : What are the odds? What are the odds?
PB : Well this is kinda funny because on a very sad way, one of the reasons Kate McCann supposedly sues people is because she says no one has the right to say Madeleine is dead because that keeps people from looking for her, which sounds like, you know, if you’re a mother you can sorta see where she’s coming from. But the fact is, the chances of Madeleine being alive – even if she didn’t die of an accident in the apartment which is what the police believe and what I think the evidence lends to, er, she would likely be dead because if she was abducted by somebody it would be like a sex predator, a child sex predator and they usually kill a child within an hour, and the concept that a child is going to be targeted to go into a sex ring and be taken around the world is not very likely, and on top of it the McCanns put together a campaign which featured her... the eye defect that Madeleine has... which is called a coloboma, which is, you know which is kind of a defect in the eye, a dark line coming out of the pupil. They put that as part of their publicity, well you know if I were a child kidnapper and I had this kid with this very obvious defect I’d get rid of the child very quickly because she could be identified so I ...
JB : Very easily...
PB : If she wasn’t dead, you’re going to make her dead by doing that.
JB : Welcome back, this is the Jim Bohannon show, we’re talking with Pat Brown, she’s the founder of the Pat Brown profiling agency and for those who haven’t heard your previous appearances on this and many other programs er what is it that you do?
PB : Well er, my main job is to do criminal profiling which I look at cold cases and I do crime reconstruction and deter...try to determine what might have happened and that’s what the police can use as a lead or to start looking in a certain direction, er, to try and get a focus on a case er and of course I do a lot of television which is commentary and not profiling, but er, I enjoy that as well as a good educational route.
JB : I’m wondering since er apparently a a lot of this er this focus is, is based in Britain. We tend to think I guess of the British is almost just quote us. Well, we have a common language and we have two free societies but there are differences, significant differences, and I, I understand that the libel laws maybe one area where there are differences.
PB : Ooooh...extremely. They’re extremely vicious right now in Britain which is why er there’s been a lot...pretty much a shut down of a lot of the media, especially in this case and I’ve had a lot of letters coming in from, from er people living in er UK and they’re like, please do, please speak out because we can’t speak out any longer in, in Britain, it’s just not allowed and they’re very frustrated with the fact they don’t have that freedom – I think there’s something recently afoot where they’re trying to ease up on that because they’re getting, it’s getting to be like a totalitarian society where you can’t say anything, and while it’s true we may be uncomfortable with what somebody says about us and certainly I know because I’ve been on the receiving end of all kinds of interesting commentary, and I, as long as it’s opinion I have to live with it, I think its people’s right to speak with their opinion but when you shut down a society and say you can longer say anything that somebody doesn’t like you’ve got a problem.
JB : What do you put forward in the Profile of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, what er conclusions do you reach?
PB : Well erm, again it’s a theory so I have to start with that so...
JB : And I understand you’re not at all shy about pointing that out, it is all theory...
PB :...I have to point that out ...and it really is er
JB : I mean you weren’t, you weren’t shy about doing it before you [??] isn’t that true?
PB : Well, the point being that it is a theory and it is my theory, er, it doesn’t mean it’s a fact, it doesn’t mean it’s true, it doesn’t mean that’s what happened, it’s a theory of what could have happened. Er and one of the, the most important thing to be pointed out right away is that there is no evidence of an abduction and that’s where the whole thing started to go wrong in people’s minds that maybe we’re not getting a straight story here, erm, right after Madeleine went missing er, the...Kate and Gerry called over to England, well actually Gerry did, and he told a number of relatives that Madeleine had been abducted and somebody had jemmied the shutters of the window, essentially crawling in and taking Madeleine away. Well, what turned out, there was no evidence of anybody coming in that window.
JB : Hmmm...
PB : And when...and I’ve always wondered you know with the McCanns said the police did a poor job on this, they were lying about this, but when Kate wrote her book she admitted there was no evidence of anybody coming through that window.
Il est vrai qu'ils ne se sont jamais expliqués sur les paroles "volet et fenêtre forcés" qui sont à l'origine de la rumeur. Seuls eux pouvaient faire taire une rumeur dont on trouve encore des traces ici et là, après plusieurs années de démenti formel quant à l'effraction. Kate MC avait une belle occasion, dans "Madeleine", de mettre les choses à plat. Par exemple, elle aurait pu admettre que, pour faire bonne figure auprès des proches, parce qu'ils se sentaient coupables d'avoir laissé les enfants seuls, ils avaient parlé d'effraction alors que les gendarmes leur avait montré qu'il n'y en avait pas eu. On se dirait alors qu'au moins ils reconnaissent leurs erreurs.
JB : Then how do they propose that the break-in occurred?
PB : Well, now kind of what they, what they’ve set up is everyday of the week they said they locked the doors to that apartment – now wouldn’t you, if you’re in an apartment, in a strange country and you have an apartment that’s on a corner, there’s a road going right behind it and there’s a carpark behind it...I don’t think you’d leave the doors unlocked when you’re...well, it’s bad enough that you leave three children alone so most of us wouldn’t do that either, but would you leave your three children alone AND leave the doors unlocked so that anybody could just come in?
JB : Don’t think so.
PB : We wouldn’t think so, well neither did the McCanns so for four days they locked the doors. The fifth day comes along and they say they left the sliding door open in the back so that somebody could go check on their child.. children when they were busy, and that’s never been done before. So suddenly on the, the last day supposedly someone else checks on their children.. child.. and the door’s left open. So you have to wonder is that really what happened or was the place really locked because if it was locked down then Madeleine was not abducted, something happened to her in the apartment in an accident that was then covered up. Er, so you have to have a way for her to get out of that apartment so you have to have an open door.
En fait ils ne disent jamais qu'ils ont laissé la porte "ouverte", ils disent qu'elle était "fermée", mais non "verrouillée", sous-entendant qu'on ne pouvait voir la différence sans essayer d'ouvrir. Mais la réalité est un peu différente : pour entrer à l'intérieur, une fois dehors, il fallait laisser la porte entrebâillée, assez ouverte pour glisser la paume de la main.
JB : What have the authorities had to say? Obviously they have long since investigated this adding for item.
PB : er yeah, Detective Amaral believed...he was the one that believed strongly that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment, they brought in dogs, er one dog identified decomposition behind the sofa, which is where Amaral believes Madeleine died, er the other dog found blood, these are sniffer dogs so this is not something we can see, found blood in the same location and so Amaral believed that Madeleine had an accident while they were out at the, at the restaurant. He believes to this day that they were responsible for what happened to their daughter and that’s why he wrote the book which got ... you know...they sued him for.
JB : Uhhmm...but they’re not suing you?... yet.
PB : Not that I know of.
JB : Not that you know of.
PB : I have not received a cease and desist notice nor has anybody approached me on that.
JB : Do you think that you have had a chip on your shoulder er that you just had it in for err...the McCanns...
PB : For the McCanns?
JB : Yeah, I mean that’s the gist of this email which was piteously dropped on me.
PB : Right. Erm, I have a thing for justice. I have a thing for the truth, and I, as a profiler I’m very bugged by things when I say, wait a minute, something’s fishy about this, something is ...something seems off here, it seems like the truth is not coming out. I have spoken up very strongly in certain crimes where I believe that we’re not getting the full story, and this was one of them, and because of the... the McCanns had a very high profile they did a lot of media er appearances, and every time I saw them things rang wrong again. I’m thinking, why are you saying that? Why are you doing that? So I think if they hadn’t been in the media so much and I hadn’t been so aware of what they were saying I wouldn’t have commented so often, so they made themselves, you know, they put themselves out there and when you do – just like me, I’m going to get people who have things to say about me.
Les MC font partie de ceux qui ne sont pas contre la liberté d'expression à condition que l'on n'ait pas d'opinions contraires aux leurs.
JB : Well, erm, unfortunately I guess it sort of goes with the nature of your work that if you don’t like Pat Brown; get in line.
PB : Yeah, well, pretty much. Yeah.
JB : I mean, I mean, there, there have to be just by the nature of what you have done er, a lot of folks who don’t think kindly of you.
PB : Well, what will happen is, is... when, when you speak out ...when you’re outspoken and, and I’ve never been accused of not being outspoken ....
JB : That’s true
PB : Er, you know, there are some people who go on television for example and talk about a case and they’ll be very careful about it, well this could happen; or that could happen; maybe she did; maybe she didn’t...and you think: Well, what do you think? Well, when I talk about a case I’m pretty blunt about what I think. Here’s what the evidence here is and here’s what I think happened.
11 - AOÛ 02 - Pat Brown (Jim Bohannon)
Westwood One radio - 02.08.2011
L'interview (1re partie) commence après la première minute
transcrit par Sasha